If you’re smart and can make a lot of money, doesn’t it make more sense that you keep doing it? If you’re poor and/or stupid, yet you can make money than some smart person on wall street (with a degree from a fancy-dancy college), then isn’t something wrong? If you’re smart and poor, how can you be expected to make money hand over fist like some rich fat-cat? Basically, if you’re smart and made money then you’ll continue doing so. If you’re ignorant and can’t make money (or lose more than you make), then you’ll probably continue to do so.
This is not news or surprising.
In Alaska at this time of year, we get our PFD checks ($1,174) from the State. Storminator can vouch for me on how packed the stores get. And you can see all the poor people buying big-ticket items such as big-screen tv’s. Free money and blowing it on high priced consumer goods. And this is why we should take from the rich to give to the poor? If they were smart, they’d start a business or invest it to earn more money. To be fair, you can’t see those people in the stores. And many people in the Bush communities use the money to stock up on groceries for the winter. Which as you can see, doesn’t allow them to invest the money to earn more in the future. So like I said, the poor will spend the money instead of using it to get wealthier. If you’re already wealthy (you can afford your food and high-priced consumer goods on your regular paychecks) then you can take this extra money to invest it.
From what I observe up here, I just don’t think it’s wise to take money from someone productive to give to those who will just blow their money on getting luxury items like big-screen tv’s. This does not make the poor person a better person, nor does it enable that person to get a better lot in life. It just makes them happier when they watch tv and drink their beer. Surely there has to be a better solution?
Awaiting the douchebag of the year award for telling it like I see it.
Hate it when I see poor people with big tv’s. The people stocking up for a lean winter is a different kind of issue. A proper investment of that money is basically useless to them for years.
The problem might be one of education, in that one of the reasons those poor people don’t spend the money wisely is because they have no idea that’s even possible. With no idea how investments work, they see the stock market like it’s a craps table with rules that change all the time.
Even if they, like me, know enough to know that there are services that do understand the market, that won’t help them (or me) with the month-to-month costs of living. So, again, one of the best tools for making money or *growing* money is rendered useless.
A similar look at the problem from a different perspective:
“The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.
Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.
But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that’d still be keeping his feet dry in ten years’ time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.
This was the Captain Samuel Vimes ‘Boots’ theory of socioeconomic unfairness.”
Tl;Dr: I don’t have a real argument, per se, except that one of the best things public schools could teach in this country would be proper finance/investment from middle school on. Those would probably be the most important lessons of a student’s life.
Education is critical, and I left that part out. My public school kid learned lots on social issues, native american issues… but financial management? Hardly. It’s so nice to see them coming home and telling you that you are a druggie because you drink caffeine, or I’m bad because I don’t recycle, and how bad white people treated the natives here…. Yup, that’ll help him get a job and keep him from being poor.
You ARE bad for not recycling and the white people DID treat the natives poorly – but that’s beside the point. And as for finance in school, they do teach it in public colleges – in grammar and high school they teach the basic math and statistics you need to get any use out of the finance classes. Plus, without a good working background in history and social sciences you’re going to get screwed big time as an investor.
And as I remember the PFD (Alaska Permanent Fund Dividend) isn’t welfare, it’s an investment program run by the state through a semi-independent corporation, funded by sales of mineral, oil and gas rights.
So those “poor people” are just spending their investment dividend – just like the rich people do. If you want to start telling poor people how to spend their money, shouldn’t we start telling rich people how to spend their money as well? Ever see Donald Trump’s yacht?
And how do you know how poor those people are, anyway? Did you examine their tax returns? Just because someone drives an old pickup doesn’t mean they’re poor.
my step one solution to the issue being discussed here is financial education as early as is reasonable. Offering it in college courses is good, but those aren’t mandatory courses, so attendance outside of business majors would be negligible not to mention the fact that students IN college are usually financially boned these days anyway. I’ve got like 8 grand in debt- lightweight, due to the fact that I started paying as I went, working 40’s and squeezing classes all into the other two days of the week. Loans for 4 years at an in-state? Better be an engineer, or something that has a high hire rate in this day and age.
Listen, I don’t know what these Occupy people hope to accomplish- I like the manner in which they choose to protest, but I don’t know what they expect to happen. There is no specific law or policy to be made to correct the imbalance they are standing against.
Please contradict me if you have better ideas, but it seems like education is the real answer- knowledge of how to protect oneself from debt, from corporate policies that insulate the company from liability- thus passing the buck to “you.” From a lot of other things that can be avoided with proper foresight.
I don’t see how anything else would make a difference- changing a law wouldn’t make people use their money better.
While more people are complaining about the class gap at this point (the whole 99% versus 1%), regulation that was cut in the 1990s played a large part in so much capital bleeding from the investment markets. Protective legislation IS needed to remedy a lot of gaping holes in investment and lending, or this will be a recurrent issue.
Additionally, more jobs being available means the government must either “incentivize” or outright require U.S.-based corporations to have so many production factories/jobs here if they wish to work within the Federal tax and legal structure. At the same time, our labor unions have to concede that wages will have to be lowered to compete with international labor pools.
Discussing with my father (a manufacturing small businessmen) the other night, I made the point that a lot of the pensions and health coverage offered by major corporations are simply no longer feasible, and Generations X and Y are facing the reality that their extended financial welfare will be solely on their own shoulders with no help from the government (I’m keeping my first social security “progress” paper just so I have something to show my grandkids when it becomes a dead institution).
The major place I learned economics? Video games. Ain’t no such thing as “credit,” in most RPG shops. You earn so much gold over so much time, and your maintenance expenses are such you have to maintain a base income of X while Y becomes your savings to put towards upgrades (etc). If you want more gold, you have to grind more efficiently (better wages per hour) and for longer and/or adjusting your maintenance costs. If you don’t have the gold to buy, you can’t buy.
“Avoid credit and loans” is the largest lesson I’ve taken from my parents and relatives’ lives.
It does no good to recycle if they have no place that recycles. They pile up the stuff they collect and sell it if the price is high enough. I don’t believe there are any places in Alaska that process recycled goods, we just ship it to the lower 48. And how expensive is that? And as for the treatment of natives, that was long before my time. It’s not fair to blame me for the actions of generations ago.
I never said the PFD was welfare. It was an example of what happens when you give free money to the masses, something the OWS people want.
I never stated that the poor should be told how to spend their money. And who should the ‘we’ be when it comes to telling others how to spend their money? And I’m guessing here, but I think a lot more people are employed when the Don buys a yacht or when your celebrities buy their jets than when a much poorer person buys a tv.
I have no idea whom exactly is ‘poor’. But when the stores are clogged with people shopping right when the State hands the money out… it’s not a leap of logic to believe that many of them are poor. If they weren’t, then there would be no need to shop en masse like they do. I guess you just have to be here to see it for yourself.
My examples pointed out that the school system teaches a lot of stuff that just doesn’t help in getting employment. The time could be used better for more important matters. And I did take the time to teach valuable subjects. Also, that’s why my other three kids were home-schooled.
Just because I complain about the school system, it doesn’t mean I didn’t do anything about it. Funny though, I thought the purpose of the education system was to teach my kid. Who knew it was just a glorified daycare center and I really had to do the teaching? Nice to see my tax dollars used wisely. Thanks for pointing that out!
The main problem is human nature: short-sighted greed (I need moar, so I get loan, for my loan, so I can buy that 99″ full HD TV), envy (his company is doing better than mine ?! Fuck him up !), etc.
No amount of education can fix that.
maybe you should get of your lazy asses and get a job
And the award for Totally Missing the Point goes to…. you! come on! take a bow!
yeah, but that’s a retarded sign. . .
But… but… it lets me pretend I actually know whats going on :'(
Anyone who says “get a job” is clueless about the economy in 2011.
If you’re smart and can make a lot of money, doesn’t it make more sense that you keep doing it? If you’re poor and/or stupid, yet you can make money than some smart person on wall street (with a degree from a fancy-dancy college), then isn’t something wrong? If you’re smart and poor, how can you be expected to make money hand over fist like some rich fat-cat? Basically, if you’re smart and made money then you’ll continue doing so. If you’re ignorant and can’t make money (or lose more than you make), then you’ll probably continue to do so.
This is not news or surprising.
In Alaska at this time of year, we get our PFD checks ($1,174) from the State. Storminator can vouch for me on how packed the stores get. And you can see all the poor people buying big-ticket items such as big-screen tv’s. Free money and blowing it on high priced consumer goods. And this is why we should take from the rich to give to the poor? If they were smart, they’d start a business or invest it to earn more money. To be fair, you can’t see those people in the stores. And many people in the Bush communities use the money to stock up on groceries for the winter. Which as you can see, doesn’t allow them to invest the money to earn more in the future. So like I said, the poor will spend the money instead of using it to get wealthier. If you’re already wealthy (you can afford your food and high-priced consumer goods on your regular paychecks) then you can take this extra money to invest it.
From what I observe up here, I just don’t think it’s wise to take money from someone productive to give to those who will just blow their money on getting luxury items like big-screen tv’s. This does not make the poor person a better person, nor does it enable that person to get a better lot in life. It just makes them happier when they watch tv and drink their beer. Surely there has to be a better solution?
Awaiting the douchebag of the year award for telling it like I see it.
Hate it when I see poor people with big tv’s. The people stocking up for a lean winter is a different kind of issue. A proper investment of that money is basically useless to them for years.
The problem might be one of education, in that one of the reasons those poor people don’t spend the money wisely is because they have no idea that’s even possible. With no idea how investments work, they see the stock market like it’s a craps table with rules that change all the time.
Even if they, like me, know enough to know that there are services that do understand the market, that won’t help them (or me) with the month-to-month costs of living. So, again, one of the best tools for making money or *growing* money is rendered useless.
A similar look at the problem from a different perspective:
“The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.
Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.
But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that’d still be keeping his feet dry in ten years’ time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.
This was the Captain Samuel Vimes ‘Boots’ theory of socioeconomic unfairness.”
Tl;Dr: I don’t have a real argument, per se, except that one of the best things public schools could teach in this country would be proper finance/investment from middle school on. Those would probably be the most important lessons of a student’s life.
Education is critical, and I left that part out. My public school kid learned lots on social issues, native american issues… but financial management? Hardly. It’s so nice to see them coming home and telling you that you are a druggie because you drink caffeine, or I’m bad because I don’t recycle, and how bad white people treated the natives here…. Yup, that’ll help him get a job and keep him from being poor.
You ARE bad for not recycling and the white people DID treat the natives poorly – but that’s beside the point. And as for finance in school, they do teach it in public colleges – in grammar and high school they teach the basic math and statistics you need to get any use out of the finance classes. Plus, without a good working background in history and social sciences you’re going to get screwed big time as an investor.
And as I remember the PFD (Alaska Permanent Fund Dividend) isn’t welfare, it’s an investment program run by the state through a semi-independent corporation, funded by sales of mineral, oil and gas rights.
So those “poor people” are just spending their investment dividend – just like the rich people do. If you want to start telling poor people how to spend their money, shouldn’t we start telling rich people how to spend their money as well? Ever see Donald Trump’s yacht?
And how do you know how poor those people are, anyway? Did you examine their tax returns? Just because someone drives an old pickup doesn’t mean they’re poor.
my step one solution to the issue being discussed here is financial education as early as is reasonable. Offering it in college courses is good, but those aren’t mandatory courses, so attendance outside of business majors would be negligible not to mention the fact that students IN college are usually financially boned these days anyway. I’ve got like 8 grand in debt- lightweight, due to the fact that I started paying as I went, working 40’s and squeezing classes all into the other two days of the week. Loans for 4 years at an in-state? Better be an engineer, or something that has a high hire rate in this day and age.
Listen, I don’t know what these Occupy people hope to accomplish- I like the manner in which they choose to protest, but I don’t know what they expect to happen. There is no specific law or policy to be made to correct the imbalance they are standing against.
Please contradict me if you have better ideas, but it seems like education is the real answer- knowledge of how to protect oneself from debt, from corporate policies that insulate the company from liability- thus passing the buck to “you.” From a lot of other things that can be avoided with proper foresight.
I don’t see how anything else would make a difference- changing a law wouldn’t make people use their money better.
@elzarcothepale
While more people are complaining about the class gap at this point (the whole 99% versus 1%), regulation that was cut in the 1990s played a large part in so much capital bleeding from the investment markets. Protective legislation IS needed to remedy a lot of gaping holes in investment and lending, or this will be a recurrent issue.
Additionally, more jobs being available means the government must either “incentivize” or outright require U.S.-based corporations to have so many production factories/jobs here if they wish to work within the Federal tax and legal structure. At the same time, our labor unions have to concede that wages will have to be lowered to compete with international labor pools.
Discussing with my father (a manufacturing small businessmen) the other night, I made the point that a lot of the pensions and health coverage offered by major corporations are simply no longer feasible, and Generations X and Y are facing the reality that their extended financial welfare will be solely on their own shoulders with no help from the government (I’m keeping my first social security “progress” paper just so I have something to show my grandkids when it becomes a dead institution).
The major place I learned economics? Video games. Ain’t no such thing as “credit,” in most RPG shops. You earn so much gold over so much time, and your maintenance expenses are such you have to maintain a base income of X while Y becomes your savings to put towards upgrades (etc). If you want more gold, you have to grind more efficiently (better wages per hour) and for longer and/or adjusting your maintenance costs. If you don’t have the gold to buy, you can’t buy.
“Avoid credit and loans” is the largest lesson I’ve taken from my parents and relatives’ lives.
It does no good to recycle if they have no place that recycles. They pile up the stuff they collect and sell it if the price is high enough. I don’t believe there are any places in Alaska that process recycled goods, we just ship it to the lower 48. And how expensive is that? And as for the treatment of natives, that was long before my time. It’s not fair to blame me for the actions of generations ago.
I never said the PFD was welfare. It was an example of what happens when you give free money to the masses, something the OWS people want.
I never stated that the poor should be told how to spend their money. And who should the ‘we’ be when it comes to telling others how to spend their money? And I’m guessing here, but I think a lot more people are employed when the Don buys a yacht or when your celebrities buy their jets than when a much poorer person buys a tv.
I have no idea whom exactly is ‘poor’. But when the stores are clogged with people shopping right when the State hands the money out… it’s not a leap of logic to believe that many of them are poor. If they weren’t, then there would be no need to shop en masse like they do. I guess you just have to be here to see it for yourself.
Don’t blame the school. You’re the parent, your kid’s education is your responsibility.
My examples pointed out that the school system teaches a lot of stuff that just doesn’t help in getting employment. The time could be used better for more important matters. And I did take the time to teach valuable subjects. Also, that’s why my other three kids were home-schooled.
Just because I complain about the school system, it doesn’t mean I didn’t do anything about it. Funny though, I thought the purpose of the education system was to teach my kid. Who knew it was just a glorified daycare center and I really had to do the teaching? Nice to see my tax dollars used wisely. Thanks for pointing that out!
The main problem is human nature: short-sighted greed (I need moar, so I get loan, for my loan, so I can buy that 99″ full HD TV), envy (his company is doing better than mine ?! Fuck him up !), etc.
No amount of education can fix that.