2+2=4, buddy. You can spend every day of your life trying to delude yourself into believing that 2+2=Jesus riding a unicorn, but that won’t change reality one bit.
You know what? I’m glad there isn’t some sky-father imposing some patriarchal stupid-ass meaning on my life. The purpose of my life is what ever the hell I want it to be. Atheism, Fuck Yeah.
I’m just glad that the Christian ideal of “god” is wrong. I’m not going to go as far as to say there’s no higher power. I don’t believe that power is an ever-watchful, petty, egotistical bastard who meddles in our lives to suit his whims and damns us all to an eternity of pain and torment if we don’t sing his praises and go to a special building every Sunday.
Honestly, if there’s a “heaven”, all that should matter to get in is whether you tried to be a generally good person as best you could. The praise and all that is irrelevant. And as far as “being a good person” goes, as long as what you’re not intentionally harming someone else with what you’re doing, do whatever you want. ( If the other party is willing, it ain’t “harm”, IMO )
I rate this troll 1/10. Meaningless troll bitch is meaningless. You’ve got nothing. Bring something to the game or stay home with your momma!!
Fluffin (#)
13 years ago
Meaningless? The only reason those religious people live is for the pure fact of trying to get into heaven? That fucking sucks. Banging, drinking, (some) other people, the entire fucking earth, the entire fucking universe…. those arn’t enough for you? Oh, and thinking for yourself is pretty sweet too.
“The only reason those religious people live is for the pure fact of trying to get into heaven”
Very wrong.
Its easy to see why people choose atheism if you go around believing this.
I for one feel like I am already in heaven. Life is that good. I believe there will be something after I die. I have no idea what, but I am not worried – I’m kinda looking forward to finding out.
Looking forward to the unknown, ok I can buy that.
Not shutting up about religious significance and such not.
Original sin is a simple control method and it sucks.
Personally, I find the entire concept of an afterlife to be what makes life on earth meaningless – at least moreso than the belief that life is at its very core chaotic chance – at least the latter leaves room for every individual to give their own existence meaning as opposed to having it taken away by making life a perpetual preparation for “something better.”
Life is what you make it, not chaotic chance. That reasoning is for weak pussies.
Believing in life after death doesnt always mean “something better”. If you were really logical you would reason even an eternity in agonising pain wouldnt be that bad, pain is only relative to comfort, with no comfort to compare it to the problem of pain would go away. Being alive is painful, we are slowly dying. We scream and wail as soon as we exit the womb.
As B.I.G said:
“It don’t make sense going to heaven with the goodie goodies
Dressed in white, I like black timbs and black hoodies,
God would probably have me on some real strict shit
No sleepin’ all day, no getting my dick licked
Hanging with the goodie goodies loungin’ in the paradise
Fuck that shit I want to tote guns and shoot dice”
See its not all about the bible and what the church consider to be scripture – its about the human spirit and the truths we hold inside us. So fuck yeah – Tupac, Biggie, Queen, Led Zeppelin, Cypress Hill, Cliff Richard I dont care what your pre-concieved notion of somebody is – art comes from somewhere very special inside of us and it holds very important messages.
Can Atheism be counted as a religious belief? There’s no house of worship, no tithing, no masthead. It has nothing that a conventional religion has, except sense.
Well, there are conventional and unconventional religions. I imagine the poster is equating the religious-like fervor of atheism to the belief-based fervor of many religions.
As soon as someone posts an image like this the atheists get out their internet pitch forks and try to defend their belief.
Its exactly like religion except twice as crazy.
What gets me is they actually think it is edgy / cool or modern, when in fact they are in the ideal position. People fought and died over beliefs and FINALLY we can be civil and share ideas without being lynched. Yet they’re all like:
NANANANANANANANANANA
IM NOT LISTENING
Guys if you don’t believe in anything… y u so mad? I’ll tell you why – your soul doesn’t agree. Your belief in nothing is like a cut on the roof of your mouth that would heal if only you could stop tonguing it.
I do wonder why atheists are so angry at believers. Religions I understand, because there are good and bad ones. But the visceral anger one receives when discussing belief versus non-belief is quite interesting. It’s like, “how dare you believe, it makes me look bad” or something like that. I’m not saying that is it, so if there is another explanation I’d be interesting in hearing it.
You know i always hear atheists correcting other non-atheists for not “getting” atheism giving a billion reasons for what constitutes as a true atheist or what atheism is. Christians do the same exact thing. Ask 12 christians what a real christian is and they will give you 14 different answers.
That’s the “No true Scotsman” argument. In reality, the whole purpose of being an atheist is you get to be whatever the fuck you want and believe whatever the fuck you want.
Ah see this explains some major differences in opinion. We should have clarified this to begin.
I was thinking along the wikipedia lines of:
Rejection of belief in deities.
The polar opposite of a person with spiritual beliefs.
Somebody that believes we are just a cosmic accident, a random collection of germs and matter with no real purpose.
You know, I was with you up until those last two sentences. Seriously, you went from semi logical to bat shit insane in the span of 4 words. How do you crash and burn that badly?
thats what they mean when they are yelling “Admiral Ackbar”
Qball (#5812)
13 years ago
I’m sorry, I don’t need a supernatural life insurance policy in order to treat my fellow man with kindness and respect. I don’t need the promise of “something better” in order to feel as if my life has meaning and purpose. If there is a god, I doubt that he would be pleased with all of the religious, cultural and racial persecution that persists in this world. From my understanding of religion, god is an all-forgiving deity who loves his children, us, unconditionally, without prejudice against race, religion or ethnicity. How sad that his children insist on bickering on his behalf, when just being an honest person who is good to their fellow man would probably be more than enough to earn his love and respect.
Why do you feel the need to be sorry for not believing? You don’t need to be. On the other hand, if you don’t believe why do you feel you’re opinion on religion and belief is of any import to those who do believe?
Saying atheism is a religion is like saying that “not-stamp-collecting” is a hobby
In fact, ”atheism” is a term that should not even exist. No one ever needs to identify himself as a “non-astrologer” or a “non-alchemist.” We do not have words for people who doubt that Elvis is still alive or that aliens have traversed the galaxy only to molest ranchers and their cattle. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs. -Sam Harris
This quote should automatically be at the top of every thread about atheism. Its the 21st century, I shouldn’t have to explain to anyone why I don’t believe in magic.
You may not believe in magic, but our technology would be magic to our ancestors. Your perspective changes your opinion. Because of our advancement the fantastical has become mundane. In the past I expect there were practitioners capable of magical feats – but these days it would be easy to explain with a periodic table and a microscope.
See, here’s my thing on most atheists summed up in Sam Harris’ quote. Instead of just saying they simply do not believe, yet they respect the right of others to believe, they call believers unreasonable people who have unjustified beliefs. It’s condescending at best. Surely many religions people are condescending to non-believers – and even to people of other religions – because of their own religious fervor as I mentioned above. But that only supports my theory that atheism is much like a religion in that way.
Does snark help you make your point? Let’s just say that in my experience – which seems to be proven out by the majority of comments here – is that this is an unwritten rule. Maybe more of a guideline.
Yes, snarks are a great way to not only express my opinion but add a bit of humor while I’m doing so. You may not find it humorous, but I do – and that’s what counts.
God is often described as being causeless and sourceless. If God doesn’t have a creator, does that mean that his or hers existence is meaningless and pointless? If something that has a meaningless existence created us, doesn’t that mean that our existence is pointless, too?
See, theism has all of the same existential dilemmas as atheism. You just quit asking the questions because you think ‘God’ is a valid answer. But the problem with religion is that is really doesn’t answer any of the Big Questions. The Bible has a bunch of rules to follow, but it doesn’t actually tell you the meaning of existence.
not a religious person myself, but i have read the bible and seriously, if you have, you’d know that the purpose is to live a good life and be a good individual doing the right thing.. that’s pretty much the point of the bible
I get it, and its a good place to have your head.
Problem is Methodological Naturalism relies on science.
And science cannot even explain gravity properly. So in effect gravity is super-natural. We don’t have the understanding to explain and quantify it. We know it’s there, we see its effect – but scientists are still arguing over the rules.
The only way they can explain some of the forces in this world is through putting them down to other dimensions we cannot observe.
Atheism:
Has concepts it unquestionably venerates
Messengers it unquestionably deifies
Books and Passages that can be quoted from heart
Ignorant followers doing ignorant things
Campaigns to spread its message
AND
Its very own “Deus Ex Machina” in the form of Evolution (Why can X do Y? ummmm….cuz….it learned it from evolution!)
“Has concepts it unquestionably venerates” – It only has one concept that is out of necessity held to be true. I don’t think it’s correct to say it is ‘venerated’.
“Messengers it unquestionably deifies” – Not true. Although there are several figureheads, none of them are seen as more than human. Oh, and I wouldn’t use “unquestionably” in the description of an atheist as they tend to be the other way around (Dawkins doesn’t agree with everything Darwin said, for instance).
“Books and Passages that can be quoted from heart.” – Not universally true, nor a requirement for atheism. But I guess since you’re just writing a vague list you might as well include this.
“Ignorant followers doing ignorant things.” – Vague general statement that can apply to everyone. Also, they are not followers of any dogma.
“Campaigns to spread its message.” – While this is a part of some religions, it’s not a part of all of them.
“Its very own “Deus Ex Machina” in the form of Evolution (Why can X do Y? ummmm….cuz….it learned it from evolution!)”
Evolution is not a requirement of atheism. It kind of us a requirement for being a modern, educated person, though.
I think you just showed us all how unlike atheism and religion is by writing a poorly thought out list.
Yes we know religion is responsible for wars and horrible acts, but it is the glue that has held civilisation together and allowed us to progress this far. Totally invaluable to society.
A belief system based on science? Ridiculous, the two subjects do not mix – you cannot understand morals or love through science. And science is constantly evolving, we do not have the full picture – it is still a LOT of guesswork. Like; ‘we know what planets are made out of from the light they emit’. I’m sorry scientists but thats just fucking crazy. You can quantify it all you want, but you only KNOW what a planet is made out of by going there and having a look see.
So to base beliefs on a system that is incomplete? Asking for trouble IMO.
No I agree, but its an easy way to spot a dangerous religion.
The bigotry of the nonbeliever is for me nearly as funny as the bigotry of the believer. – A. Einstein.
For all you atheists out there un-familiar with Einsteins (non)religious banter – check out “Einstein’s God: Albert Einstein’s Quest As a Scientist and As a Jew to Replace a Forsaken God”
Raëlism
The Order of the Solar Temple
Creativity Movement
Chen Tao
I guess the problem is I have not been a member of these organisations, so I do not know first hand. But from what I can tell love and moral value would be least of their interests.
Teaching hate and intolerance never really takes off. Yes it happens, mostly through perverted sects of major religions, but the foundations of major religions are 99% pure.
I just don’t get how scientists can stand up and proudly declare they have figured out what a celestial body – millions of miles away – is made of by….. looking.
Is it me or os that just bat-shit insane?
Its scientific method gone mad. Arrogant bastards.
Faith is needed to believe in science just as it is needed to belief in God. Don’t get me wrong, I believe in science. But, take physics for example, I don’t understand physics. I never will. So when a physicist tells me that there are black holes exerting gravitational forces on parts of the universe he or she can’t even see, well, my believing that is based on faith. Just as my belief in God is faith.
And let me tell you, what with so many set-in-stone scientific theories changing a dozen times over my life my faith in science is pretty rocky these days.
They have some suprises coming. Almost everything I was taught at school has been disproven. Especially the bit about me being a lazy good for nothing failure.
dallasalice: I think you just equated your belief in god with willful ignorance.
It might not have been your intention, but it’s clear that your understanding is lacking in certain areas.
If you are implying that your god requires just as much/little faith as a black hole, I’d ask you to present your best piece of evidence of its existence.
dallasalice: I think you just equated your belief in god with willful ignorance.
It might not have been your intention, but it’s clear that your understanding is lacking in certain areas.
If you are implying that your god requires just as much/little faith as a black hole, I’d ask you to present your best piece of evidence of its existence.
Religionists have changed their beliefs quite a bit. Y’know with Jebus and all that jazz.
And yes science comes up with better answers. Thats my point. Its only a matter of time before we are given PROOF our universe is inside a marble, sitting on a table, in a world contained within a bubble, floating through another world, balanced on a disc on the back of four elephants, standing on a turtle, flying through space.
My point is no-one really knows what the fuck is going on.
Spectral absorption – Certain materials absorb certain frequencies of EM Radiation (“Light”). This is an observable fact here on earth, in our local area of space, and laws of physics don’t change. It’s our problems extrapolating the laws of physics that make them seem like they do.
Thats how they can have an idea of what a planet, or star, or other body is made of – its not just by looking, its by examining its radiated energy – examining the spectrum of that energy – and seeing what absorption lines are present. It doesn’t give you every single detail, but it can tell you, for instance, jupiter has hydrogen, planet y in solar system Z has a significant amount of element X.. it’s not guesswork.
And black holes are visible thanks to hawking radiation, as well as the accretion discs of the black hole’s dinner around the event horizon. not to mention the gravitation effects – you see something orbiting an area that indicates the mass of a star, but you dont see a star, instead you see hawking rad and/or the debris disc – black hole is a candidate.
“dallasalice – the big difference is that with science you DON’T have to believe the scientist, you can verify his claims for youself.”
Actually, the average person cannot verify the claims of scientists. The black hole example is simply one of a million. Heck, even qualified scientists cannot always verify the claims of other scientists.
Scientific peer review is based on the premise that if other scientists can’t get the same findings that you did, then you have made a mistake somewhere.
“Has concepts it unquestionably venerates
Messengers it unquestionably deifies”
There’s where you’re wrong. One of the key aspects of a true atheist is that they question everything. Which tends to naturally lead in a disbelief in most standard religious teachings. Most atheists don’t dismiss the possibility of a higher power, but simply say it is unlikely to be so. Only a fool dismisses something outright that he can’t be SURE is false. By the same token, only a fool accepts a truth as absolute if he can’t be SURE it’s true. A wise man questions everything.
[“Has concepts it unquestionably venerates” – It only has one concept that is out of necessity held to be true. I don’t think it’s correct to say it is ‘venerated’.]
It’s fought for, held as universally true, and respected so much that anyone who doesn’t agree, nevermind that, anyone who questions it is generally considered to be of lower intelligence. Yea, venerated.
[“Messengers it unquestionably deifies” – Not true. Although there are several figureheads, none of them are seen as more than human.]
Uh-huh. M[c]S, as a local example, has trading cards of these dudes and loving affix their quotes to nice little pictures. Then the atheists all flock to it and fellate the author’s reputation. Nevermind the fact that it may be a baseless, or biased statement about another belief.
[“Books and Passages that can be quoted from heart.” – Not universally true, nor a requirement for atheism.]
Doesn’t need to be a “requirement” to be a honest evaluation of what goes on. In this very thread for example, you’ll find the pitch:
-Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs. -Sam Harris-
And the catch:
-This quote should automatically be at the top of every thread about atheism.
[“Ignorant followers doing ignorant things.” – Vague general statement that can apply to everyone. Also, they are not followers of any dogma.]
Not of a dogma, of other men.
[“Campaigns to spread its message.”– While this is a part of some religions, it’s not a part of all of them.]
Stay on-topic. We’re talking about Atheism and you know this is true.
[“Its very own “Deus Ex Machina” in the form of Evolution (Why can X do Y? ummmm….cuz….it learned it from evolution!)”
Evolution is not a requirement of atheism. It kind of us a requirement for being a modern, educated person, though.]
Annnnnnnnnnnnd there goes the underhanded insult. gg.
[I think you just showed us all how unlike atheism and religion is by writing a poorly thought out list.
I almost missed your reply, it seems to have been misplaced.
“It’s fought for, held as universally true, and respected so much that anyone who doesn’t agree, nevermind that, anyone who questions it is generally considered to be of lower intelligence. Yea, venerated.”
This can be said about any political party or sports fan. You, of course, mean “fought” in the context of debates and discussions. But I’m glad you corrected yourself from saying “concepts” to “concept”. What religion has only one tenet (exclude atheism from this answer, if you can)?
“Uh-huh. M[c]S, as a local example, has trading cards of these dudes and loving affix their quotes to nice little pictures. Then the atheists all flock to it and fellate the author’s reputation. ”
Then Pokémon are deified according to your definition. You’re stretching the words you use to be all-compassing. Tsk tsk.
“Nevermind the fact that it may be a baseless, or biased statement about another belief.”
What do you mean?
“Doesn’t need to be a “requirement” to be a honest evaluation of what goes on. (…)”
So you’re not talking about atheism anymore, but individual MCS-dwelling atheists? I can quote Bill Watterson, I guess this makes me a great creator of comic books!
“Not of a dogma, of other men.”
So you don’t think a religion requires a dogma? Are armies considered religions because the soldiers follow a general? (I can stretch this analogy to include several of your other points, if you want).
What men, and what do you mean by “following”?
“Stay on-topic. We’re talking about Atheism and you know this is true.”
Oh, I am on topic. If you claim that campaigning to spread a message is a sign of something being a religion. Some religions don’t proselytize, are they still religions? Of course they are, and that’s another point of yours demolished.
“Annnnnnnnnnnnd there goes the underhanded insult. gg.”
And there goes the retreating while acting offended. Christianity in a nutshell.
I know I already thanked you, but you shouldn’t really allow yourself to make me look this good.
You make the rather idiotic mistake of applying the “extremist” views to the whole. That’s bad to do for any philosophy – ie: Atheism, theism, or political views.
Humans believe in a limitless number of things. And those beliefs change over time for a limitless number of reasons.
My statement still stands though, religious people sometimes have doubts and question their faith. Just as I imagine many atheists sometimes wonder if there is a God.
Not that is true, but it varies greatly depending on the religion. While Catholicism has a mostly non-negotiable doctrine, I’ve had many interesting discussions regarding faith and doubt and so forth. I think many clergy enjoy these discussions because it gives them an opportunity to not only teach but to look at their own beliefs.
[I almost missed your reply, it seems to have been misplaced.]
Yea, the width and format of long thread replies bug me, so I replied to a post that would give me more “room”.
[Then Pokémon are deified according to your definition. You’re stretching the words you use to be all-compassing. Tsk tsk.]
If you pray to your pokemon shrine in your spare time, that’s your business. Stay on-topic please. Everything can apply to everything else with a little stretching. SPECIFICALLY, i’m talking about the words of the men who declare themselves to have an understanding of the (lack of) existence of any spiritual realm. You hang on their words, keep their portraits in your fap folder, make darling wallpapers and…let’s not forget the fellating part. I hope you aren’t doing the same to Pikachu.
[“Nevermind the fact that it may be a baseless, or biased statement about another belief.” What do you mean?]
I’m referring to quotes or examples that intend to show how silly another belief is by shading the truth or making implications or comparisons that don’t fit. It’s never questioned by the base, just taken at face value.
[So you’re not talking about atheism anymore, but individual MCS-dwelling atheists? ]
Did you not get the “in the very thread FOR EXAMPLE” part?
[“Not of a dogma, of other men.”
So you don’t think a religion requires a dogma?]
Sheesh, that’s not what I said. I said they’re followers “not of a dogma, of other men.”
[If you claim that campaigning to spread a message is a sign of something being a religion. Some religions don’t proselytize, are they still religions?]
You’re thinking too small. Proselytizing is not the only way to spread your message. What religion doesn’t have a method to get their word “out there”? Whether it’s “Jesus Saves”, “Read God’s Word the Bible Daily” or “Love One Another”, the message goes forth in an orderly and uniform manner. Hell, JWs even believe your conduct and way of life SILENTLY directs people to God.
[And there goes the retreating while acting offended. Christianity in a nutshell.]
Nah bro. If a “modern and educated” person like yourself can’t have a discussion like this without attacking or insulting the intelligence of a person you’ve never met, what hope does this witless, aliterate, un-washed, peasant possibly have?
“SPECIFICALLY, i’m talking about the words of the men who declare themselves to have an understanding of the (lack of) existence of any spiritual realm. You hang on their words, keep their portraits in your fap folder, make darling wallpapers and…”
I didn’t even know I did those things! And those people speak like they do because they have an understanding of the real world, where everything works as if no deity were involved.
Let’s hope you do better in the following replies, because this was just pathetic.
“I’m referring to quotes or examples that intend to show how silly another belief is by shading the truth or making implications or comparisons that don’t fit. It’s never questioned by the base, just taken at face value.”
Yeah, this isn’t true either. Isn’t *that* ironic?
Go check popular blogs like Pharyngula and RichardDawkins.net for plenty of examples of atheists disagreeing with all the four horsemen of the apocalypse, and PZ Myers. Heck, you could also just google “atheism schism” or look for atheist opinions on Bill “Fap Folder” Maher.
Do research first, then put foot in mouth.
“Did you not get the “in the very thread FOR EXAMPLE” part?”
I take that as a yes, as I have demolished all your other points.
“Sheesh, that’s not what I said. I said they’re followers “not of a dogma, of other men.””
I know what you said, but I still want to know if you think religion requires dogma. Anyone with a job is a “follower of a man”, any soldier, any kindergarten kid, or a kid with a parent.
See, this is what I mean when I say your examples are vague: if you can take your example and use it in a million contexts.
“You’re thinking too small. Proselytizing is not the only way to spread your message. What religion doesn’t have a method to get their word “out there”? Whether it’s “Jesus Saves”, “Read God’s Word the Bible Daily” or “Love One Another”, the message goes forth in an orderly and uniform manner. Hell, JWs even believe your conduct and way of life SILENTLY directs people to God.”
Those are all examples of proselytizing. And there’s nothing silent about Jehova’s Witnesses. It’s true that there are atheist organizations putting up billboards. But advertising your organization does not a religion make. Christians drink wine and think it is blood, this does not mean that emo vampire-wannabe kids that do the same are automatically religious.
“Nah bro. If a “modern and educated” person like yourself can’t have a discussion like this without attacking or insulting the intelligence of a person you’ve never met, what hope does this witless, aliterate, un-washed, peasant possibly have?”
You know it’s all in good fun. I was just giving you an excuse to back out before you’ll get even more humiliated.
Regardless of how much you don’t agree with one persons beliefs, or if you think they’re stupid, it really doesn’t make a shit ton of difference. Its like a bunch of people standing around a closed box, and debating what’s inside. One KNOWS its empty, another’s convinced it’s a plate of bacon. No way! Obviously if we study the box and the space around it, we can determine the object inside. The fourth is too busy arguing about it on the internet.
He must be, why else would he be mentioned in an old book? There are also several eye-witnesses to his existence (I didn’t much care for those movies, though).
But it is still in the realm of possibility that the box contains gandalf. Now how likely it is that it actually contains gandalf is a whole other story.
I’m sorry i didn’t flip out and go on a rant about how atheists are going to hell or one of the other easy to deconstruct canned Theist-arguments. Would you like me to write some diatribes on why i think bhuddists should be executed or something? What the hell are you looking for? Intellectual dialogue? Well i’m sorry but you seem to have your mind made up on the subject and i have nothing to offer you besides more questions, questions you undoubtedly have been asked. The most i can offer is some companionship in hopes that more bridges will be built between believers and non-believers.
But hey if you want to be a callous arrogant ass to anyone who disagrees with your beliefs then whatever. Your prerogative i suppose.
If the only meaning you are able to extract from your life is via a religion, then you are really to be pitied, I suppose. My life is filled with meaning, although I’m probably more of an agnostic than an atheist. My life’s meaning certainly doesn’t relate to the existence or not of God or gods.
Why do so many Christians insist on believing that faith=religion?
Lolcat (#)
13 years ago
I think that where much of this so-called atheist anger is coming from is that being atheist used to be BAD. I grew up in Apartheid South Africa and you better believe it that seemingly EVERYONE was a die-hard Christian. I felt incredibly lonely growing up, unable to share my blasphemous thinking. Now that it is acceptable (I suppose this depends on your geographic location) to be an atheist, we are overreacting with our newly found freedom. It’s like fags becoming socially acceptable (see previous caveat). I think pretty soon the novelty will have worn off and everyone will settle down.
My atheist anger comes from people being raised religious, in pious greedy judgemental hipocritic churces – and deciding to take the opposite path of atheism – therefore missing out on thousands of years worth of good helpful material. I’m not saying this is what atheism means, or that all atheists are from this background. But it concerns me deeply that these churches exist and do serious damage.
I can understand it. I just want people to know that not all religious ideas are this concerned with controlling you. That many are very tolerant and might be just what you are looking for.
Trolling atheists is easier than trolling christians these days.
You know what i find hilarious? If there was an image macro that reduced religion(s) to such a simplistic one liner all the atheists who are whining like butthurt christians would be high-fiving eachother and swarming in on the first christian who would say “well it is isn’t that simple”
But there is no winning in a discussion about religion no matter which side you are on.
Atheism and theism are extremely abstract in both philosophy and practice. Atheistic mindsets have produced both Karl Marx and Ayn Rand. Religious mindsets gave us George Lemaitre and Tom Araya of Slayer. Religion and atheism arguments aren’t like a football game where there is a clear cut winner based on a set of rules and points systems. At least until there is a way to definitively prove that there is no god or that there is one. Unless you are capable of acknowledging or turning off your cognitive biases how can you rightfully declare one side the winner? Besides at the end of the day both sides will walk away thinking they won the argument and they will both maintain a base of supporters for their cause or belief.
But hey, i am just some dumb zombie worshiper. I have a lot of anti-evolution propaganda to try to insert into educational curriculum via legislation. Then when i go home i am going to beat my wife and fuck the babysitter.
Seriously though – about this zombie thing, personally I just think Jesus was a very clever dude that did some good shit.
Forget all the Dogma, this is 2011 – thats how many years since he lived. The fact we base our timeline on him is proof enough, I don’t need to believe anything else about him. The bit about dying for my sins? I don’t get that. Now I have to sin or he died for nothing. Eating his flesh…. sorry Mr Pastor WHAT?
Do you honestly believe in these sweeping generalizations that you like to make? Does the notion that some of us religious folk are actually rational and reasonable people scare you so much that you feel the need to degrade the crowd as a whole.
I don’t assume every atheist is some sensationalist fire-mouthed dick-shitter like richard dawkins.
You mis-read my comment to read “religious people are not reasonable at all”. It’s an easy mistake to make when you’re a Christian on the subject of religion.
Perhaps you should go back to trolling easier targets (what was it, fundamentalists?), that last sentence is just too obvious, predictable and desperate.
@dallasalice
Of course you think you’re reasonable, what other choice to you have? The fact of the matter, though, is that you believe in silly things that you read in an old book. Things that a consistently reasonable person would regard as superstition and myth.
I can respect people I disagree with. But I don’t hold you in very high regard because you argue like you have never met an opposing thought in your entire life.
This is not meant in any way as an insult (promise), but are you relatively young? Under 18 perhaps?
I’m sorry but isn’t atheism a little more philosophically complex than that convenient one liner would have us believe? I mean that would be like me saying that christianity is the belief in a supernatural zombie that is going to take everyone from the earth and make them into kings of heaven and…Actually that sounds pretty awesome. Still the point is that atheism is every bit as complex as theism and to simplify it in such a manner strikes me as intellectually dishonest.
“Still the point is that atheism is every bit as complex as theism and to simplify it in such a manner strikes me as intellectually dishonest.”
I agree with that. I’m actually interested in understanding this idea of a complex atheism. Although it seems to me that it’s pretty simple – an atheist does not believe in God – or any higher power. Is that not correct? Where does the complexity come into play? Other than the reasons for not believing which I imagine are often varied and complex, much like the reasons for believing are often varied and complex.
Only slightly off topic, but you might want to read this book – American Gods. The basic premise is the Gods of old – who have faded in both power and in memory due to lowering numbers of believers – are approaching a battle with the Gods of the new – television, the Internet, and other modern creations – who now have many believers and are therefore prospering.
What made me think of it was your “if I worship the sun would I be an atheist?” question. My answer being if you worship it does it not become one?
Only slightly off topic, but you might want to read this book – American Gods. The basic premise is the Gods of old – who have faded in both power and in memory due to lowering numbers of believers – are approaching a battle with the Gods of the new – television, the Internet, and other modern creations – who now have many believers and are therefore prospering.
What made me think of it was your “if I worship the sun would I be an atheist?” question. My answer being if you worship it does it not become a God?
Well i think the complexity comes with the lifestyle of being an atheist. You lack a fundemental belief in god and therefore need to seek either external sources for guidance on any type of matter or you solve problems by analyzing your past mishaps and miscues. You can be a Gnostic-atheist or agnostic-atheist. You can base your arguments off of the arguments of Antony Flew (who eventually became a deist), Christopher Hitchens or the almighty dawkins.
But i think i get what you are saying. Atheism itself is relatively simplistic, you simply do not believe in gods. As for the reasons and your philosophies behind it, that is where the complexity comes in. So i guess Atheists are complex while atheism is simplistic.
A satellite with a big laser or nuclear missile orbiting (Banned, but lets face it, they’re up there).. A higher power. Or lower, depending on your point of reference. It’s all relative.
dre (#)
13 years ago
why is it that liberals never want to consider other’s opinions.. i’m not even talking about religion here. its like, if a liberal doesn’t like something it should be banned.. fucking tards.. i’m not even a conservative or a republican.. i dont give a fuck about politics, but fuck, liberals are worthless wastes of space
I think everyone needs to just calm down a little bit here guys.
I mean, this is no moldy bible, but still.
Also, there are too many people here equating “believe” with “know”. I am an atheist because I believe that there is no god. But I don’t know that there’s no god. It’s impossible for me to rule out the chance that there is a grand scientist in whose mind we are just the contents of a figurative petri dish, because I’ve never been given unequivocal proof of his absence.
SHUT THE FUCK UP LUKE. YOU ARE BEING COOL AND RATIONAL ABOUT SHIT. ATHEISTS ARE ARROGANT FUCKS AND CHRISTIANS ARE IGNORANT UNSCIENTIFIC ASSHOLES. HOW DARE YOU COME IN HERE WITH YOUR RESERVATIONS AND TOLERANCE.
2+2=4, buddy. You can spend every day of your life trying to delude yourself into believing that 2+2=Jesus riding a unicorn, but that won’t change reality one bit.
2+2 != Jesus riding a unicorn.
2+2 = Jesus riding a unicorn AND obama is an uppity jigaboo.
Q. E. D.
You know what? I’m glad there isn’t some sky-father imposing some patriarchal stupid-ass meaning on my life. The purpose of my life is what ever the hell I want it to be. Atheism, Fuck Yeah.
You’d be suprised how close this is to what religion used to be.
The whole judgemental benevolent father is relatively modern. And yeah it fucking sucks.
I’m just glad that the Christian ideal of “god” is wrong. I’m not going to go as far as to say there’s no higher power. I don’t believe that power is an ever-watchful, petty, egotistical bastard who meddles in our lives to suit his whims and damns us all to an eternity of pain and torment if we don’t sing his praises and go to a special building every Sunday.
Honestly, if there’s a “heaven”, all that should matter to get in is whether you tried to be a generally good person as best you could. The praise and all that is irrelevant. And as far as “being a good person” goes, as long as what you’re not intentionally harming someone else with what you’re doing, do whatever you want. ( If the other party is willing, it ain’t “harm”, IMO )
Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law – as Crowley said.
I rate this troll 1/10. Meaningless troll bitch is meaningless. You’ve got nothing. Bring something to the game or stay home with your momma!!
Meaningless? The only reason those religious people live is for the pure fact of trying to get into heaven? That fucking sucks. Banging, drinking, (some) other people, the entire fucking earth, the entire fucking universe…. those arn’t enough for you? Oh, and thinking for yourself is pretty sweet too.
“The only reason those religious people live is for the pure fact of trying to get into heaven”
Very wrong.
Its easy to see why people choose atheism if you go around believing this.
I for one feel like I am already in heaven. Life is that good. I believe there will be something after I die. I have no idea what, but I am not worried – I’m kinda looking forward to finding out.
Looking forward to the unknown, ok I can buy that.
Not shutting up about religious significance and such not.
Original sin is a simple control method and it sucks.
Hey this is a religious thread I’m aloud to sound off on my soap box.
Stop being so aloud!
*shame*
Personally, I find the entire concept of an afterlife to be what makes life on earth meaningless – at least moreso than the belief that life is at its very core chaotic chance – at least the latter leaves room for every individual to give their own existence meaning as opposed to having it taken away by making life a perpetual preparation for “something better.”
Finally a well-reasoned, civil response.
Life is what you make it, not chaotic chance. That reasoning is for weak pussies.
Believing in life after death doesnt always mean “something better”. If you were really logical you would reason even an eternity in agonising pain wouldnt be that bad, pain is only relative to comfort, with no comfort to compare it to the problem of pain would go away. Being alive is painful, we are slowly dying. We scream and wail as soon as we exit the womb.
As B.I.G said:
“It don’t make sense going to heaven with the goodie goodies
Dressed in white, I like black timbs and black hoodies,
God would probably have me on some real strict shit
No sleepin’ all day, no getting my dick licked
Hanging with the goodie goodies loungin’ in the paradise
Fuck that shit I want to tote guns and shoot dice”
You’re quoting a Rap signer ? seriously ?
Some people consider the truth to be everywhere.
See its not all about the bible and what the church consider to be scripture – its about the human spirit and the truths we hold inside us. So fuck yeah – Tupac, Biggie, Queen, Led Zeppelin, Cypress Hill, Cliff Richard I dont care what your pre-concieved notion of somebody is – art comes from somewhere very special inside of us and it holds very important messages.
Who cares who he quotes as long as it’s something good.
That said, it was a crap quote.
Yeah it was a crap quote but it illustrates a point.
Would sitting on a cloud playing a harp for eternity be something you want?
Can Atheism be counted as a religious belief? There’s no house of worship, no tithing, no masthead. It has nothing that a conventional religion has, except sense.
Well, there are conventional and unconventional religions. I imagine the poster is equating the religious-like fervor of atheism to the belief-based fervor of many religions.
By poster I mean the actual poster up above, not me the person who posted it.
Oh , not another, “is zero a number?” debate! Seriously dude! wtf?
Hey, I just thought the poster was interesting. If you don’t want to discuss it, no one is forcing you to.
As soon as someone posts an image like this the atheists get out their internet pitch forks and try to defend their belief.
Its exactly like religion except twice as crazy.
What gets me is they actually think it is edgy / cool or modern, when in fact they are in the ideal position. People fought and died over beliefs and FINALLY we can be civil and share ideas without being lynched. Yet they’re all like:
NANANANANANANANANANA
IM NOT LISTENING
Guys if you don’t believe in anything… y u so mad? I’ll tell you why – your soul doesn’t agree. Your belief in nothing is like a cut on the roof of your mouth that would heal if only you could stop tonguing it.
Soul? LOL.
Hehe that rhymes
I do wonder why atheists are so angry at believers. Religions I understand, because there are good and bad ones. But the visceral anger one receives when discussing belief versus non-belief is quite interesting. It’s like, “how dare you believe, it makes me look bad” or something like that. I’m not saying that is it, so if there is another explanation I’d be interesting in hearing it.
You have such a misconception of atheism it’s a wonder that you’re willing to talk about it.
Please feel free to correct me, thats what we’re here for after all…
Then please clarify what Atheism “is”.
You know i always hear atheists correcting other non-atheists for not “getting” atheism giving a billion reasons for what constitutes as a true atheist or what atheism is. Christians do the same exact thing. Ask 12 christians what a real christian is and they will give you 14 different answers.
That’s the “No true Scotsman” argument. In reality, the whole purpose of being an atheist is you get to be whatever the fuck you want and believe whatever the fuck you want.
Ah see this explains some major differences in opinion. We should have clarified this to begin.
I was thinking along the wikipedia lines of:
Rejection of belief in deities.
The polar opposite of a person with spiritual beliefs.
Somebody that believes we are just a cosmic accident, a random collection of germs and matter with no real purpose.
Well, then educate me.
You know, I was with you up until those last two sentences. Seriously, you went from semi logical to bat shit insane in the span of 4 words. How do you crash and burn that badly?
“It has nothing that a conventional religion has, except sense.”
No, religion does not have sense.
You’re right. Atheism is NOT a religion. Atheism is as much a religion as not playing football is a sport.
Well playing table tennis is not playing football, so not playing football – in this case – is a sport.
Logical fallacy FTW.
Please stop being so aloud!
ALLAAAH IS GREAAAT!!!!!
(at pedophilia)
thats what they mean when they are yelling “Admiral Ackbar”
I’m sorry, I don’t need a supernatural life insurance policy in order to treat my fellow man with kindness and respect. I don’t need the promise of “something better” in order to feel as if my life has meaning and purpose. If there is a god, I doubt that he would be pleased with all of the religious, cultural and racial persecution that persists in this world. From my understanding of religion, god is an all-forgiving deity who loves his children, us, unconditionally, without prejudice against race, religion or ethnicity. How sad that his children insist on bickering on his behalf, when just being an honest person who is good to their fellow man would probably be more than enough to earn his love and respect.
Why do you feel the need to be sorry for not believing? You don’t need to be. On the other hand, if you don’t believe why do you feel you’re opinion on religion and belief is of any import to those who do believe?
Atheism isn’t a religion.
Religion = belief
Atheism = non-belief
belief != non-belief
Saying atheism is a religion is like saying that “not-stamp-collecting” is a hobby
In fact, ”atheism” is a term that should not even exist. No one ever needs to identify himself as a “non-astrologer” or a “non-alchemist.” We do not have words for people who doubt that Elvis is still alive or that aliens have traversed the galaxy only to molest ranchers and their cattle. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs. -Sam Harris
This quote should automatically be at the top of every thread about atheism. Its the 21st century, I shouldn’t have to explain to anyone why I don’t believe in magic.
Do you have a lot of people asking you to explain?
You may not believe in magic, but our technology would be magic to our ancestors. Your perspective changes your opinion. Because of our advancement the fantastical has become mundane. In the past I expect there were practitioners capable of magical feats – but these days it would be easy to explain with a periodic table and a microscope.
My monitor is flat. Now thats magic.
That’s dumb. You are dumb.
See, here’s my thing on most atheists summed up in Sam Harris’ quote. Instead of just saying they simply do not believe, yet they respect the right of others to believe, they call believers unreasonable people who have unjustified beliefs. It’s condescending at best. Surely many religions people are condescending to non-believers – and even to people of other religions – because of their own religious fervor as I mentioned above. But that only supports my theory that atheism is much like a religion in that way.
Is there some rule that Atheists have to “call believers unreasonable people who have unjustified beliefs”?
I don’t believe I’ve ever done that.
It wasn’t in the Atheists handbook I got when I signed up. Does this mean I’ll be excommunicated and not allowed to not believe in God?
Maybe if I just make a huge donation to the Atheist Church they’ll grant me a dispensation.
Does snark help you make your point? Let’s just say that in my experience – which seems to be proven out by the majority of comments here – is that this is an unwritten rule. Maybe more of a guideline.
Yes, snarks are a great way to not only express my opinion but add a bit of humor while I’m doing so. You may not find it humorous, but I do – and that’s what counts.
Do you understand the difference between disagreement and “respecting someone’s right to believe”?
Perhaps you should think about that for a moment.
same goes for liberals.. oh wait, they’re one and the same.. go fucking figure
God is often described as being causeless and sourceless. If God doesn’t have a creator, does that mean that his or hers existence is meaningless and pointless? If something that has a meaningless existence created us, doesn’t that mean that our existence is pointless, too?
See, theism has all of the same existential dilemmas as atheism. You just quit asking the questions because you think ‘God’ is a valid answer. But the problem with religion is that is really doesn’t answer any of the Big Questions. The Bible has a bunch of rules to follow, but it doesn’t actually tell you the meaning of existence.
not a religious person myself, but i have read the bible and seriously, if you have, you’d know that the purpose is to live a good life and be a good individual doing the right thing.. that’s pretty much the point of the bible
I see you skipped the old testament, and certain parts of the new testament.
I believe in Methodological Naturalism. Which, by default, makes me an athiest.
I get it, and its a good place to have your head.
Problem is Methodological Naturalism relies on science.
And science cannot even explain gravity properly. So in effect gravity is super-natural. We don’t have the understanding to explain and quantify it. We know it’s there, we see its effect – but scientists are still arguing over the rules.
The only way they can explain some of the forces in this world is through putting them down to other dimensions we cannot observe.
If that isnt supernatural I dont know what is.
I don’t think you have the same definition of super-natural as clever people do.
I don’t think you are very clever.
The same can be said for you.
I don’t think I am very clever?
True.
Atheism:
Has concepts it unquestionably venerates
Messengers it unquestionably deifies
Books and Passages that can be quoted from heart
Ignorant followers doing ignorant things
Campaigns to spread its message
AND
Its very own “Deus Ex Machina” in the form of Evolution (Why can X do Y? ummmm….cuz….it learned it from evolution!)
Just the next fashionable religion.
Just because a person is atheist doesn’t mean they have to have a preoccupation with science. There are zero prerequisites to be one.
“Has concepts it unquestionably venerates” – It only has one concept that is out of necessity held to be true. I don’t think it’s correct to say it is ‘venerated’.
“Messengers it unquestionably deifies” – Not true. Although there are several figureheads, none of them are seen as more than human. Oh, and I wouldn’t use “unquestionably” in the description of an atheist as they tend to be the other way around (Dawkins doesn’t agree with everything Darwin said, for instance).
“Books and Passages that can be quoted from heart.” – Not universally true, nor a requirement for atheism. But I guess since you’re just writing a vague list you might as well include this.
“Ignorant followers doing ignorant things.” – Vague general statement that can apply to everyone. Also, they are not followers of any dogma.
“Campaigns to spread its message.” – While this is a part of some religions, it’s not a part of all of them.
“Its very own “Deus Ex Machina” in the form of Evolution (Why can X do Y? ummmm….cuz….it learned it from evolution!)”
Evolution is not a requirement of atheism. It kind of us a requirement for being a modern, educated person, though.
I think you just showed us all how unlike atheism and religion is by writing a poorly thought out list.
Thanks!
“Evolution is not a requirement of atheism. It kind of us a requirement for being a modern, educated person, though.”
Hehehe yeah thats some real cutting edge stuff right there.
That’s a given. I wrote it.
By ‘educated’ you mean ‘has read at least one book’?
“More than one Book” would fit better in this particular context, wouldn’t you say?
Alright.
Grammar nazi.
Boys, boys! You both fail.
Your head is a dalek.
Worst.
Religion.
Ever.
How to spot a dangerous religion:
Doesn’t teach love.
Doesn’t teach moral values.
Yes we know religion is responsible for wars and horrible acts, but it is the glue that has held civilisation together and allowed us to progress this far. Totally invaluable to society.
A belief system based on science? Ridiculous, the two subjects do not mix – you cannot understand morals or love through science. And science is constantly evolving, we do not have the full picture – it is still a LOT of guesswork. Like; ‘we know what planets are made out of from the light they emit’. I’m sorry scientists but thats just fucking crazy. You can quantify it all you want, but you only KNOW what a planet is made out of by going there and having a look see.
So to base beliefs on a system that is incomplete? Asking for trouble IMO.
“Doesn’t teach love.
Doesn’t teach moral values.”
While I understand your meaning, this doesn’t envelop the truth of what makes a dangerous religion.
One of religion’s strengths that it can teach two (or more) opposing things at the same time.
“Send someone to heaven as an act of love” is the first example that springs to mind.
“Moral values” and “love” can mean anything inside the narrow confines of a religion.
No I agree, but its an easy way to spot a dangerous religion.
The bigotry of the nonbeliever is for me nearly as funny as the bigotry of the believer. – A. Einstein.
For all you atheists out there un-familiar with Einsteins (non)religious banter – check out “Einstein’s God: Albert Einstein’s Quest As a Scientist and As a Jew to Replace a Forsaken God”
Which religions are dangerous according to those criteria?
Raëlism
The Order of the Solar Temple
Creativity Movement
Chen Tao
I guess the problem is I have not been a member of these organisations, so I do not know first hand. But from what I can tell love and moral value would be least of their interests.
So all the major religions pass the test?
Well by definition really.
Teaching hate and intolerance never really takes off. Yes it happens, mostly through perverted sects of major religions, but the foundations of major religions are 99% pure.
There is always exceptions.
Why do you think that determining the chemical composition of astronomical objects using spectrometry is crazy?
I just don’t get how scientists can stand up and proudly declare they have figured out what a celestial body – millions of miles away – is made of by….. looking.
Is it me or os that just bat-shit insane?
Its scientific method gone mad. Arrogant bastards.
Faith is needed to believe in science just as it is needed to belief in God. Don’t get me wrong, I believe in science. But, take physics for example, I don’t understand physics. I never will. So when a physicist tells me that there are black holes exerting gravitational forces on parts of the universe he or she can’t even see, well, my believing that is based on faith. Just as my belief in God is faith.
And let me tell you, what with so many set-in-stone scientific theories changing a dozen times over my life my faith in science is pretty rocky these days.
I totally agree with this.
These wippersnappers think science is infallible.
They have some suprises coming. Almost everything I was taught at school has been disproven. Especially the bit about me being a lazy good for nothing failure.
dallasalice: I think you just equated your belief in god with willful ignorance.
It might not have been your intention, but it’s clear that your understanding is lacking in certain areas.
If you are implying that your god requires just as much/little faith as a black hole, I’d ask you to present your best piece of evidence of its existence.
dallasalice: I think you just equated your belief in god with willful ignorance.
It might not have been your intention, but it’s clear that your understanding is lacking in certain areas.
If you are implying that your god requires just as much/little faith as a black hole, I’d ask you to present your best piece of evidence of its existence.
dallasalice – the big difference is that with science you DON’T have to believe the scientist, you can verify his claims for youself.
Now just imagine what would happen if Protestants got to peer-review every batshit insane claim made by Catholics (or vice-versa, pick your poison)
Anadin – “These wippersnappers think science is infallible.
They have some suprises coming. Almost everything I was taught at school has been disproven.”
Yes, disproven by SCIENCE with better answers. Religionists still believe the same crazy shit as thousands of years ago.
Religionists have changed their beliefs quite a bit. Y’know with Jebus and all that jazz.
And yes science comes up with better answers. Thats my point. Its only a matter of time before we are given PROOF our universe is inside a marble, sitting on a table, in a world contained within a bubble, floating through another world, balanced on a disc on the back of four elephants, standing on a turtle, flying through space.
My point is no-one really knows what the fuck is going on.
I acknowledge your point, mine was that science explains what the fuck is going on a little bit better than religion.
“science may not have all the answers, but it does supply all the answers we do have”
Yeah I think the problem is people take religion and try to apply it like a science.
It should be a personal thing that has a special meaning to you.
Not something to enforce upon other people.
Spectral absorption – Certain materials absorb certain frequencies of EM Radiation (“Light”). This is an observable fact here on earth, in our local area of space, and laws of physics don’t change. It’s our problems extrapolating the laws of physics that make them seem like they do.
Thats how they can have an idea of what a planet, or star, or other body is made of – its not just by looking, its by examining its radiated energy – examining the spectrum of that energy – and seeing what absorption lines are present. It doesn’t give you every single detail, but it can tell you, for instance, jupiter has hydrogen, planet y in solar system Z has a significant amount of element X.. it’s not guesswork.
And black holes are visible thanks to hawking radiation, as well as the accretion discs of the black hole’s dinner around the event horizon. not to mention the gravitation effects – you see something orbiting an area that indicates the mass of a star, but you dont see a star, instead you see hawking rad and/or the debris disc – black hole is a candidate.
“How to spot a dangerous religion:
Doesn’t teach love.
Doesn’t teach moral values”
Love me or burn in hellfire for eternity.
Yeah, that’s my definition of love too.
“dallasalice – the big difference is that with science you DON’T have to believe the scientist, you can verify his claims for youself.”
Actually, the average person cannot verify the claims of scientists. The black hole example is simply one of a million. Heck, even qualified scientists cannot always verify the claims of other scientists.
That’s not even wrong.
Scientific peer review is based on the premise that if other scientists can’t get the same findings that you did, then you have made a mistake somewhere.
Well done – you spotted a dangerous one.
“Has concepts it unquestionably venerates
Messengers it unquestionably deifies”
There’s where you’re wrong. One of the key aspects of a true atheist is that they question everything. Which tends to naturally lead in a disbelief in most standard religious teachings. Most atheists don’t dismiss the possibility of a higher power, but simply say it is unlikely to be so. Only a fool dismisses something outright that he can’t be SURE is false. By the same token, only a fool accepts a truth as absolute if he can’t be SURE it’s true. A wise man questions everything.
[“Has concepts it unquestionably venerates” – It only has one concept that is out of necessity held to be true. I don’t think it’s correct to say it is ‘venerated’.]
It’s fought for, held as universally true, and respected so much that anyone who doesn’t agree, nevermind that, anyone who questions it is generally considered to be of lower intelligence. Yea, venerated.
[“Messengers it unquestionably deifies” – Not true. Although there are several figureheads, none of them are seen as more than human.]
Uh-huh. M[c]S, as a local example, has trading cards of these dudes and loving affix their quotes to nice little pictures. Then the atheists all flock to it and fellate the author’s reputation. Nevermind the fact that it may be a baseless, or biased statement about another belief.
[“Books and Passages that can be quoted from heart.” – Not universally true, nor a requirement for atheism.]
Doesn’t need to be a “requirement” to be a honest evaluation of what goes on. In this very thread for example, you’ll find the pitch:
-Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs. -Sam Harris-
And the catch:
-This quote should automatically be at the top of every thread about atheism.
[“Ignorant followers doing ignorant things.” – Vague general statement that can apply to everyone. Also, they are not followers of any dogma.]
Not of a dogma, of other men.
[“Campaigns to spread its message.”– While this is a part of some religions, it’s not a part of all of them.]
Stay on-topic. We’re talking about Atheism and you know this is true.
[“Its very own “Deus Ex Machina” in the form of Evolution (Why can X do Y? ummmm….cuz….it learned it from evolution!)”
Evolution is not a requirement of atheism. It kind of us a requirement for being a modern, educated person, though.]
Annnnnnnnnnnnd there goes the underhanded insult. gg.
[I think you just showed us all how unlike atheism and religion is by writing a poorly thought out list.
Thanks!]
no prob bro
I almost missed your reply, it seems to have been misplaced.
“It’s fought for, held as universally true, and respected so much that anyone who doesn’t agree, nevermind that, anyone who questions it is generally considered to be of lower intelligence. Yea, venerated.”
This can be said about any political party or sports fan. You, of course, mean “fought” in the context of debates and discussions. But I’m glad you corrected yourself from saying “concepts” to “concept”. What religion has only one tenet (exclude atheism from this answer, if you can)?
“Uh-huh. M[c]S, as a local example, has trading cards of these dudes and loving affix their quotes to nice little pictures. Then the atheists all flock to it and fellate the author’s reputation. ”
Then Pokémon are deified according to your definition. You’re stretching the words you use to be all-compassing. Tsk tsk.
“Nevermind the fact that it may be a baseless, or biased statement about another belief.”
What do you mean?
“Doesn’t need to be a “requirement” to be a honest evaluation of what goes on. (…)”
So you’re not talking about atheism anymore, but individual MCS-dwelling atheists? I can quote Bill Watterson, I guess this makes me a great creator of comic books!
“Not of a dogma, of other men.”
So you don’t think a religion requires a dogma? Are armies considered religions because the soldiers follow a general? (I can stretch this analogy to include several of your other points, if you want).
What men, and what do you mean by “following”?
“Stay on-topic. We’re talking about Atheism and you know this is true.”
Oh, I am on topic. If you claim that campaigning to spread a message is a sign of something being a religion. Some religions don’t proselytize, are they still religions? Of course they are, and that’s another point of yours demolished.
“Annnnnnnnnnnnd there goes the underhanded insult. gg.”
And there goes the retreating while acting offended. Christianity in a nutshell.
I know I already thanked you, but you shouldn’t really allow yourself to make me look this good.
Religion with one tenet:
Futurism
futurians.co.uk/rational-religion.html
Only just found this hehe thanks Kori.
One commandment: Be good.
Awesome.
@anadin: Oh, perhaps I was unclear. I meant an actual religion, not a sentence.
Nope in this day and age anything goes.
You make the rather idiotic mistake of applying the “extremist” views to the whole. That’s bad to do for any philosophy – ie: Atheism, theism, or political views.
Problem?
What makes you think that believers don’t question things? I don’t know one religious person who hasn’t had doubts or questions about their faith.
“What makes you think that believers don’t question things?”
They believe in witches, evil spirits, world-wide floods and scape-goating.
You can see why one would get the impression you guys aren’t thinking hard enough about certain aspects of your life.
Humans believe in a limitless number of things. And those beliefs change over time for a limitless number of reasons.
My statement still stands though, religious people sometimes have doubts and question their faith. Just as I imagine many atheists sometimes wonder if there is a God.
Because most clergy actively discourage asking too many questions.
Not that is true, but it varies greatly depending on the religion. While Catholicism has a mostly non-negotiable doctrine, I’ve had many interesting discussions regarding faith and doubt and so forth. I think many clergy enjoy these discussions because it gives them an opportunity to not only teach but to look at their own beliefs.
“Not” should be “now.”
[I almost missed your reply, it seems to have been misplaced.]
Yea, the width and format of long thread replies bug me, so I replied to a post that would give me more “room”.
[Then Pokémon are deified according to your definition. You’re stretching the words you use to be all-compassing. Tsk tsk.]
If you pray to your pokemon shrine in your spare time, that’s your business. Stay on-topic please. Everything can apply to everything else with a little stretching. SPECIFICALLY, i’m talking about the words of the men who declare themselves to have an understanding of the (lack of) existence of any spiritual realm. You hang on their words, keep their portraits in your fap folder, make darling wallpapers and…let’s not forget the fellating part. I hope you aren’t doing the same to Pikachu.
[“Nevermind the fact that it may be a baseless, or biased statement about another belief.” What do you mean?]
I’m referring to quotes or examples that intend to show how silly another belief is by shading the truth or making implications or comparisons that don’t fit. It’s never questioned by the base, just taken at face value.
[So you’re not talking about atheism anymore, but individual MCS-dwelling atheists? ]
Did you not get the “in the very thread FOR EXAMPLE” part?
[“Not of a dogma, of other men.”
So you don’t think a religion requires a dogma?]
Sheesh, that’s not what I said. I said they’re followers “not of a dogma, of other men.”
[If you claim that campaigning to spread a message is a sign of something being a religion. Some religions don’t proselytize, are they still religions?]
You’re thinking too small. Proselytizing is not the only way to spread your message. What religion doesn’t have a method to get their word “out there”? Whether it’s “Jesus Saves”, “Read God’s Word the Bible Daily” or “Love One Another”, the message goes forth in an orderly and uniform manner. Hell, JWs even believe your conduct and way of life SILENTLY directs people to God.
[And there goes the retreating while acting offended. Christianity in a nutshell.]
Nah bro. If a “modern and educated” person like yourself can’t have a discussion like this without attacking or insulting the intelligence of a person you’ve never met, what hope does this witless, aliterate, un-washed, peasant possibly have?
Hugs?
“SPECIFICALLY, i’m talking about the words of the men who declare themselves to have an understanding of the (lack of) existence of any spiritual realm. You hang on their words, keep their portraits in your fap folder, make darling wallpapers and…”
I didn’t even know I did those things! And those people speak like they do because they have an understanding of the real world, where everything works as if no deity were involved.
Let’s hope you do better in the following replies, because this was just pathetic.
“I’m referring to quotes or examples that intend to show how silly another belief is by shading the truth or making implications or comparisons that don’t fit. It’s never questioned by the base, just taken at face value.”
Yeah, this isn’t true either. Isn’t *that* ironic?
Go check popular blogs like Pharyngula and RichardDawkins.net for plenty of examples of atheists disagreeing with all the four horsemen of the apocalypse, and PZ Myers. Heck, you could also just google “atheism schism” or look for atheist opinions on Bill “Fap Folder” Maher.
Do research first, then put foot in mouth.
“Did you not get the “in the very thread FOR EXAMPLE” part?”
I take that as a yes, as I have demolished all your other points.
“Sheesh, that’s not what I said. I said they’re followers “not of a dogma, of other men.””
I know what you said, but I still want to know if you think religion requires dogma. Anyone with a job is a “follower of a man”, any soldier, any kindergarten kid, or a kid with a parent.
See, this is what I mean when I say your examples are vague: if you can take your example and use it in a million contexts.
“You’re thinking too small. Proselytizing is not the only way to spread your message. What religion doesn’t have a method to get their word “out there”? Whether it’s “Jesus Saves”, “Read God’s Word the Bible Daily” or “Love One Another”, the message goes forth in an orderly and uniform manner. Hell, JWs even believe your conduct and way of life SILENTLY directs people to God.”
Those are all examples of proselytizing. And there’s nothing silent about Jehova’s Witnesses. It’s true that there are atheist organizations putting up billboards. But advertising your organization does not a religion make. Christians drink wine and think it is blood, this does not mean that emo vampire-wannabe kids that do the same are automatically religious.
“Nah bro. If a “modern and educated” person like yourself can’t have a discussion like this without attacking or insulting the intelligence of a person you’ve never met, what hope does this witless, aliterate, un-washed, peasant possibly have?”
You know it’s all in good fun. I was just giving you an excuse to back out before you’ll get even more humiliated.
thats not wikipedia’s answer. and i trust that guy. yyyup.
Regardless of how much you don’t agree with one persons beliefs, or if you think they’re stupid, it really doesn’t make a shit ton of difference. Its like a bunch of people standing around a closed box, and debating what’s inside. One KNOWS its empty, another’s convinced it’s a plate of bacon. No way! Obviously if we study the box and the space around it, we can determine the object inside. The fourth is too busy arguing about it on the internet.
You don’t know what’s in it till you open it.
Hell yes. Best analogy yet. And it involves bacon.
If it was bacon I’d be able to smell it though.
What if one of the people standing around the box said it contains Gandalf?
You don’t know that he’s not in there until you open it!
Let’s live in the real world, shall we?
Gandalf is from the real world?
He must be, why else would he be mentioned in an old book? There are also several eye-witnesses to his existence (I didn’t much care for those movies, though).
JESUS-H-DAWKINS! You two are hogging up all the comments. You’re posting more than me even!
“JESUS-H-DAWKINS”
lmao
I’m gonna use this one if you don’t mind?
But it is still in the realm of possibility that the box contains gandalf. Now how likely it is that it actually contains gandalf is a whole other story.
I prefered the bacon.
You disregarded the last sentence of my comment 🙁
No i didn’t. plus you failed to define what the “real world” is.
You’re boring me, thelotuseater.
I’m sorry i didn’t flip out and go on a rant about how atheists are going to hell or one of the other easy to deconstruct canned Theist-arguments. Would you like me to write some diatribes on why i think bhuddists should be executed or something? What the hell are you looking for? Intellectual dialogue? Well i’m sorry but you seem to have your mind made up on the subject and i have nothing to offer you besides more questions, questions you undoubtedly have been asked. The most i can offer is some companionship in hopes that more bridges will be built between believers and non-believers.
But hey if you want to be a callous arrogant ass to anyone who disagrees with your beliefs then whatever. Your prerogative i suppose.
Was that directed at me? Next time let the amount of text match the actual content.
Hey hey we’ve all had a drink lets not get out of hand now
Good call. And let me just stop this circle jerk here and say you’re fucking hot!
If the only meaning you are able to extract from your life is via a religion, then you are really to be pitied, I suppose. My life is filled with meaning, although I’m probably more of an agnostic than an atheist. My life’s meaning certainly doesn’t relate to the existence or not of God or gods.
“Ye Are Gods” – Jesus ( & Psalms)
Why do so many Christians insist on believing that faith=religion?
I think that where much of this so-called atheist anger is coming from is that being atheist used to be BAD. I grew up in Apartheid South Africa and you better believe it that seemingly EVERYONE was a die-hard Christian. I felt incredibly lonely growing up, unable to share my blasphemous thinking. Now that it is acceptable (I suppose this depends on your geographic location) to be an atheist, we are overreacting with our newly found freedom. It’s like fags becoming socially acceptable (see previous caveat). I think pretty soon the novelty will have worn off and everyone will settle down.
My atheist anger comes from people being raised religious, in pious greedy judgemental hipocritic churces – and deciding to take the opposite path of atheism – therefore missing out on thousands of years worth of good helpful material. I’m not saying this is what atheism means, or that all atheists are from this background. But it concerns me deeply that these churches exist and do serious damage.
I can understand it. I just want people to know that not all religious ideas are this concerned with controlling you. That many are very tolerant and might be just what you are looking for.
You’ve yet to give a good example of this “good helpful material” that isn’t already available outside of religion.
Trolling atheists is easier than trolling christians these days.
You know what i find hilarious? If there was an image macro that reduced religion(s) to such a simplistic one liner all the atheists who are whining like butthurt christians would be high-fiving eachother and swarming in on the first christian who would say “well it is isn’t that simple”
If you think that’s easy, you should try winning a discussion about religion vs a Christian.
I dont think there is any winning.
How many times has someone said
“Oh actually I never saw it like that – I take it all back”?
I think these people just like to argue. But then again it’s good to share ideas and have a little banter right? It’s stimulating.
Wait, you can’t tell if someone has won an argument on the Internet?
Suddenly things start to make sense, anadin.
Taking part is winning in my book.
I take part, *and* I crush my opponents to hear the lamentations of their fleshlights.
But there is no winning in a discussion about religion no matter which side you are on.
Atheism and theism are extremely abstract in both philosophy and practice. Atheistic mindsets have produced both Karl Marx and Ayn Rand. Religious mindsets gave us George Lemaitre and Tom Araya of Slayer. Religion and atheism arguments aren’t like a football game where there is a clear cut winner based on a set of rules and points systems. At least until there is a way to definitively prove that there is no god or that there is one. Unless you are capable of acknowledging or turning off your cognitive biases how can you rightfully declare one side the winner? Besides at the end of the day both sides will walk away thinking they won the argument and they will both maintain a base of supporters for their cause or belief.
But hey, i am just some dumb zombie worshiper. I have a lot of anti-evolution propaganda to try to insert into educational curriculum via legislation. Then when i go home i am going to beat my wife and fuck the babysitter.
You can’t tell who the winner of an argument is either?
Perhaps I am more unique than I thought, or maybe yours is a stance that has to be adopted by your side of the argument.
As a newbie, you can start off by looking at every (longer) argument in which anadin or navi (magnus buttforsomething) are involved.
I’m just baffled by you people, and that’s not even considering the dumb zombie worshiping thing.
Hey I let you win sometimes.
Seriously though – about this zombie thing, personally I just think Jesus was a very clever dude that did some good shit.
Forget all the Dogma, this is 2011 – thats how many years since he lived. The fact we base our timeline on him is proof enough, I don’t need to believe anything else about him. The bit about dying for my sins? I don’t get that. Now I have to sin or he died for nothing. Eating his flesh…. sorry Mr Pastor WHAT?
I’m not especially impressed by his supposed intelligence, especially considering his alleged relations to a deity.
The fact that we base our time line on his birth is just proof that we live in a historically Christian part of the world, nothing more.
Why does there have to be a winner? Reasonable people can disagree and still respect each other.
Religious people are not reasonable when it comes to religion.
And who said anything about respect?
Do you honestly believe in these sweeping generalizations that you like to make? Does the notion that some of us religious folk are actually rational and reasonable people scare you so much that you feel the need to degrade the crowd as a whole.
I don’t assume every atheist is some sensationalist fire-mouthed dick-shitter like richard dawkins.
You mis-read my comment to read “religious people are not reasonable at all”. It’s an easy mistake to make when you’re a Christian on the subject of religion.
Perhaps you should go back to trolling easier targets (what was it, fundamentalists?), that last sentence is just too obvious, predictable and desperate.
You’re boring me again.
I read it as
Reasonable people are not religious when it comes to reason.
Does that work?
Yeah that works.
I’m religious and I think I’m very reasonable. Do I sound unreasonable?
Well, respecting those that disagree with you is an old-world concept. I’m not surprised you might not be up on it.
@dallasalice
Of course you think you’re reasonable, what other choice to you have? The fact of the matter, though, is that you believe in silly things that you read in an old book. Things that a consistently reasonable person would regard as superstition and myth.
I can respect people I disagree with. But I don’t hold you in very high regard because you argue like you have never met an opposing thought in your entire life.
This is not meant in any way as an insult (promise), but are you relatively young? Under 18 perhaps?
I’m sorry but isn’t atheism a little more philosophically complex than that convenient one liner would have us believe? I mean that would be like me saying that christianity is the belief in a supernatural zombie that is going to take everyone from the earth and make them into kings of heaven and…Actually that sounds pretty awesome. Still the point is that atheism is every bit as complex as theism and to simplify it in such a manner strikes me as intellectually dishonest.
“Still the point is that atheism is every bit as complex as theism and to simplify it in such a manner strikes me as intellectually dishonest.”
I agree with that. I’m actually interested in understanding this idea of a complex atheism. Although it seems to me that it’s pretty simple – an atheist does not believe in God – or any higher power. Is that not correct? Where does the complexity come into play? Other than the reasons for not believing which I imagine are often varied and complex, much like the reasons for believing are often varied and complex.
If I worship the sun would I be atheist? Its not a deity. But it is responsible for our survival.
I’d say that makes me pagan. But didn’t pagans believe the sun WAS a deity?
Shit. Modern times are confusing.
Only slightly off topic, but you might want to read this book – American Gods. The basic premise is the Gods of old – who have faded in both power and in memory due to lowering numbers of believers – are approaching a battle with the Gods of the new – television, the Internet, and other modern creations – who now have many believers and are therefore prospering.
What made me think of it was your “if I worship the sun would I be an atheist?” question. My answer being if you worship it does it not become one?
Yup American Gods is a massive favourite of mine, Odin (Mr Wednesday) is portrayed brilliantly. Neil Gaiman is awesome.
Also ‘Good Omens’ is very good.
Only slightly off topic, but you might want to read this book – American Gods. The basic premise is the Gods of old – who have faded in both power and in memory due to lowering numbers of believers – are approaching a battle with the Gods of the new – television, the Internet, and other modern creations – who now have many believers and are therefore prospering.
What made me think of it was your “if I worship the sun would I be an atheist?” question. My answer being if you worship it does it not become a God?
Sorry about the double post – my God of Internet seems to be very annoyed with me today.
Well i think the complexity comes with the lifestyle of being an atheist. You lack a fundemental belief in god and therefore need to seek either external sources for guidance on any type of matter or you solve problems by analyzing your past mishaps and miscues. You can be a Gnostic-atheist or agnostic-atheist. You can base your arguments off of the arguments of Antony Flew (who eventually became a deist), Christopher Hitchens or the almighty dawkins.
But i think i get what you are saying. Atheism itself is relatively simplistic, you simply do not believe in gods. As for the reasons and your philosophies behind it, that is where the complexity comes in. So i guess Atheists are complex while atheism is simplistic.
“So i guess Atheists are complex while atheism is simplistic.”
Must be nice. Belief is very complex, and in most instances religion does not make it any simpler.
“So i guess Atheists are complex while atheism is simplistic.”
Hehe its like software, works fine until users get invlolved.
A satellite with a big laser or nuclear missile orbiting (Banned, but lets face it, they’re up there).. A higher power. Or lower, depending on your point of reference. It’s all relative.
why is it that liberals never want to consider other’s opinions.. i’m not even talking about religion here. its like, if a liberal doesn’t like something it should be banned.. fucking tards.. i’m not even a conservative or a republican.. i dont give a fuck about politics, but fuck, liberals are worthless wastes of space
^this made my day.
I see you read my literature.
I think you’ll find both sides are just as bad. They both suck.
What have the liberals banned?
I think everyone needs to just calm down a little bit here guys.
I mean, this is no moldy bible, but still.
Also, there are too many people here equating “believe” with “know”. I am an atheist because I believe that there is no god. But I don’t know that there’s no god. It’s impossible for me to rule out the chance that there is a grand scientist in whose mind we are just the contents of a figurative petri dish, because I’ve never been given unequivocal proof of his absence.
But my BELIEF is that that’s just silly.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y6PSibEW3o&t=8m1s
LOL Love the Young Ones. First saw them when I was stationed in Europe.
SHUT THE FUCK UP LUKE. YOU ARE BEING COOL AND RATIONAL ABOUT SHIT. ATHEISTS ARE ARROGANT FUCKS AND CHRISTIANS ARE IGNORANT UNSCIENTIFIC ASSHOLES. HOW DARE YOU COME IN HERE WITH YOUR RESERVATIONS AND TOLERANCE.
HEY MAN SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT MY FUCKING TOLERANCE OR I WON’T ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING I’LL JUST BE REALLY DISAPPOINTED IN YOU
YOU DICK
See! They’re both the same damn guy.
I like your version of atheism better than mine. Do you have like a book or pamphlet I can read?
Also, 163 comments? Holy… I mean, secular shit!
I have a short novel titled “Everything is OK and everyone is a little bit right at least some of the time”, it’s on the Amazon.
did i miss something?
It’s not like this is a moldy picture of the big bang.