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Totally Palin’s fault. And the pundits’ strong rhetoric. And unknown talk radio shows. They’re all to blame, not the kid who was fucked in the head that actually did the shooting.
The kid was messed up, no doubt. My armchair diagnosis based on his youtube channel would be early stage of schizophrenia. But political climate in this country contributes all a lot to the facts that someone like that would (a) go undiagnosed and untreated (b) have access to firearms and (c) target a political figure at a public rally.
Bemoaning ‘access to firearms’ and referencing The Matrix series of movies? Really??
Movies? What movies? I just like linear algebra
What’s not to love about matrices, determinants and vectors?
We are all responsible for our own behavior. The mentally ill perhaps a little less so, but his actions didn’t happen in a vacuum. This “2nd amendment remedies” and “tree of liberty” bullshit is heard by everyone, including the batshit insane. When public figures have said “we have to tone down the rhetoric” its not because they were worried about SANE and HEALTHY people picking up guns and offing a pol.
Perhaps that’s why Glenn Beck’s first response was to call Sarah Palin and recommend she get a bodyguard. “I want you to know you have my support. But please look into protection for your family. An attempt on you could bring the republic down,” Beck wrote
Nope, nobody’s worried.
In his next fucking sentence he said something like “and if we lose you, the republic could fall…”
one moron braying at another.
wow I responded before I even read your whole post. bad form on my part.
Anyways, I’ll let you in on a little secret about the left…
The reason you have that sneaking suspicion that we see ourselves as somehow superior is because for the most part we generally do. That feeling is rooted in the fact, among others, that we like to think of ourselves as being able to solve problems without the threat of murder.
Aside from the occasional schizo or paranoid lunatic thats fallen through the cracks we don’t have alot of violence. (malvo had some sort of value system that you could maybe call lefty?)
Don’t get me wrong, if the US was invaded or there was some sort of civil war I’d be the first in line for a gun to protect my country. But assassination and/or terrorism hasn’t really been our thing since the 70’s unless you count ELF burning down construction sites and stealing lab animals and shit like that.
Shall we compare lists?
The US is a Republic?
Yes, the USA is a republic.
” I Pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the United States of America; and to the REPUBLIC, for which it stands…..”
A true democracy is where everybody votes about everything. We don’t do that. We vote for white collar criminals to vote for us and then lie about it; until we replace them with younger criminals who are better liars.
Strong rhetoric ?? See this Wall Street Journal article on strong rhetoric- Obama: ‘If They Bring a Knife to the Fight, We Bring a Gun’
blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/06/14/obama-if-they-bring-a-knife-to-the-fight-we-bring-a-gun/
I also have a copy of Jared Loughners voter registration: he’s a registered Democrat.
“I also have a copy of Jared Loughners voter registration: he’s a registered Democrat.”
Link? There’s more than a couple fake registrations going around the web
ask obama about that, he should know.
Why would a ‘leftie’ shoot a left-wing politician then? The conservative spin really makes no sense. When a compassionate, left-wing, pro-life, pro-public health care supporter is killed, you’d have to be dumb as fuck to believe the murderer agrees with the victim. The neo-cons are in big big trouble here and they know it.
They’re all fake. The man was registered independent.
azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_78272a23-fe75-5bee-ba38-f8171cda3fb7.html
Which, in my mind, is better evidence that this could be less political than it’s made out to be… but the con base insists on lying as if it will change reality. It’s sad. More so, because I expect that they actually think it works. Guess it worked well enough during the Bush era.
You may be able to cherry-pick some comments by a lefty politician that uses some sort of imagery that can be interpreted as violent, but only in the most abstract terms.
It just sounds defensive and pathetic. We all know where this has come from.
And where was Miss Anonymous’ outrage at the “Snipers Wanted” crawl under George Bush’s picture? Severely lacking, I would guess.
That was a comedy show, not a politician or official political ad, and the show was severely reprimanded and they apologized.
fight fire with fire. A well trained and armed citizen (such as myself)
could have ended the suspect’s spree rather quickly. I’m a bit surprised that in AZ that wasn’t the case. I would bet if it were Texas, it could have been over before the first shell casings hit the ground.
One of the guys that held the suspect down had a gun on his hip. Before he could draw it 18 people had been shot and the gunman had been foiled by an unarmed woman.
But you’re right, I’m sure if YOU were there everything would’ve turned out great.
If I was right there, I would have engaged him for sure. I did not read ANY reports of anyone returning fire on him. If nobody shoots back, then of course he’s gonna keep shooting and you’ll wind up with the outcome that they had. What would you do? Run and hide? Hit him with a hail of sarcasm? BTW he fired nearly 30 rounds from a semi-auto. That takes over twice the time it should take for someone to draw and fire a single aimed shot. As a result, they wish to pass a ban on hicap mags. Great idea, a looney with 10-rounds is FAR safer than a looney with 30. Gimme a break, guns will never go away. Guns will never kill people. People kill people, with anything they can get their hands on, even their bare hands only.
lol He wouldn’t have killed 6 people with his bare hands.
Look, I’m not for abolishing the 2nd amendment its there for a good reason, but we have drivers licenses ostensibly because cars are dangerous if not used responsibly. Guns, on the other hand, are DESIGNED to kill people and yet you need no qualification in AZ besides a pulse and a felony free record to use one. There has to be a middle ground.
I’m sure everyone involved would have been just thrilled to have another guy there throwing shots, but as it is, the whole thing was over in 10 seconds. If you walk around at all times strapped ready to kill in less time than that than you are indeed a badass, but you were born a couple centuries late.
I completely agree with you on the “middle ground”. I am definitely in favor of something helping prevent mister crazy with a clean record from goin postal. Also, driver’s licenses in CA are too easy to get. They don’t even make you parallel park in most places. I would vote that people must successfully drive and park a manual transmission before they get a license. Finally, Chuck Norris could kill 6 people with his bare hands.
agreed on all points
I say on every driving test it should include a “how to merge onto a highway” part, and the method is not slow and stop at the end of the ramp when there’s decent sized gaps in the traffic. Damn does that piss me off.
“Guns will never kill people. People kill people, with anything they can get their hands on, even their bare hands only.”
But with guns you can kill a lot more a lot faster.
First shot with a muzzleloader is murder. After that, its natural selection. Rate of fire matters.
why was it still on his hip instead of being used much earlier?
Clearly the guy with the gun on his hip didn’t intend to use it. Otherwise, there’s no way he wouldn’t have been able to get one shot off before the shooter made so many.
new info on the dude with gun who helped subdue the attacker. Two big reason he didn’t use his weapon. First and foremost, he wasn’t sure which person was the attacker. He states he could have fired on the wrong person (another bystander with a weapon) which would have sucked big time. Secondly, he doesn’t have any formal training. Info obtained here… www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41018893/ns/slatecom/
I wish I could give you more than one up vote. I legally concealed carry myself.
“JOHN WILKES BOOTH SHOT THE PRESIDENT BECAUSE OF ZEBIDIAH PALIN’S POLITICAL RHETORIC!!”
By trying so hard to refute the connection between the shooting and Palin, you’re just helping the cause of publicizing it. Thank you.
Blame where blame is due. Was it Sarah Palin’s fault that this person shot innocent people? No.
Was her political ad tasteless, inappropriate, grossly offensive and something that she ought to be ashamed of and something that everyone should learn a lesson from? Yes.
Everyone that is blaming Palin/Republicans are being just as partisan and contributing to the problem.
Really? How exactly does it contribute to the problem? Please explain.
Lets just skip past the first step and I’ll concede that I’m foolish and shrill and not capable of understanding anything but the most simple basic blah blah blah and skip to the part where you explain why using fearful and angry hyperbolic rhetoric is a constructive thing and people who think its a bad idea are making the problem worse.
I’m all ears.
Thinking that the fearful and angry rhetoric is bad is a good thing. The fearful and angry rhetoric is not constructive. Those ads were awful. But that shooter was suffering from mental illness. He was going to do what he was going to do regardless of political ads that we have no evidence that he even saw (at least i have seen no evidence of that).
I think pointing the finger at Republicans and Palin is just another example of fearful, angry, rhetoric thus contributing to the problem.
There are PLENTY of reasons to disagree with the far right wing that has taken over the republican party, and PLENTY of reasons to wish that Sarah Palin would shut up and go away. But I just cannot see that we can directly blame her for this.
PLEASE EXPLAIN, in what manner and to what effect does it contribute to the problem?
Is it because if I say something that makes you feel bad about yourself you’re more likely to produce a gun and shoot me?
I don’t blame her directly for this shooting, for decisions that someone else made.
But you cannot make crazy people just go away. We all have to live with them to some degree. For christ sakes its a fucking cliche; Mother waits up late for daughter to return, getting more worried and thinks, “I hope she didn’t run into some crazy person…”
Most crazy people are harmless. Some small percentage aren’t. This guy was obviously headed for some sort of collision. But really are you telling me that even if all this bullshit rhetoric that the right has been spouting (ever since we elected a black muslum kenyian socialist faggot as president) had never happened, that this kid was just DESTINED to shoot 18 people no matter what? He would just gravitate to some other public figure at an event with a lot of people ant take out as many as he could?
I’m the last person to use the “post 911 world” as an excuse to change our behavior. But I will admit, a lot of shit happens now, every day, that I would’ve considered completely insane 10 years ago. Therefore, in a world where people have been saying for OVER A YEAR that something like this was going to happen as a consequence of all this hyperbole, this shooting isn’t really all that crazy to me.
So maybe it didn’t seem quite so crazy to him either.
I think that it contributes, because, without any direct evidence, you start pointing at someone, or a group of people and blaming them for these deaths. You are vilifying the right and saying to the world “this is all their fault for being so polarizing and hateful” You really don’t see the inherent fallacy in that?
A much more rational and constructive response is to mourn our loss and try to work together to make sure things like this don’t happen again.
Yes yes yes fallacy, whatev. What are the consequences of my saying that, tho. More people killed?
Yes it would be more constructive to work together, but shall we also put our heads in the sand, not ask any questions, not examine our own behavior or speak openly or honestly about our mistakes?
Its fucking immature to just say “It’s both sides’ fault, EQUALLY.” Its no more the left’s fault for this as it is for the woman who jus’ don’t know when to shut the fuck up for getting beaten by her husband.
The consequences are that you are generally contributing to the tone of the political discussion being polarized, hateful and unproductive. Which is the exact thing you were decrying in the first place.
I never said that we should not ask any questions or examine why this happened, I don’t know what I said that made you think that gave you that impression, and I never said it was both sides fault equally. I actually never assigned blame to anyone besides the shooter and his mental illness. At this point, with the information that we have about the incidence, I think that it is premature to assign blame to anyone but the person that pulled the trigger.
Yes, he was crazy. I’m not saying he had any personal correspondence with glen beck. I just cannot imagine that in a country where this kind of anger (often accompanied by implied threats of violence) against the government has become so accepted, you don’t think that events like this only become MORE likely.
The events do become more likely. But I suppose I would place my blame on the entire situation and on the shooter, and not on a single instance of outrageous and inappropriate politics (that is really just a drop in an ocean of outrageous and inappropriate politics). My answer is to not point a finger at Sarah Palin, but to acknowledge that no sane person, no matter what their politics, wanted this to happen.
While I couldn’t disagree with her opinions more, and couldn’t disapprove more of that campaign ad, I think that by pointing the finger at her and saying that it is all her fault, I would be contributing to the problem.
The political discussion is already polarized and hateful. And guess what? I’m angry.
I’m sure alcoholics think interventions aren’t very productive either. After all, we can’t say for sure that your being drunk was the deciding factor in your car hitting that house until we check the brake system, right?
The left at least puts up the pretense of trying to be civil and reasonable. The right is where all the Nazi imagery and tree of liberty bullshit comes from. Most of the work in the ‘working together’ needs to be done on the right.
I do not see how pointing this out contributes to the problem.
No matter what this guy’s motives are, this is a glimpse of our future, the natural progression of this rhetoric. The reason everyone is jumping on the right is because this is the exact image we have all seen in our heads since the health care bill. When people bring guns to town hall meetings, this is the exact scenario they are trying to evoke in people’s imagination.
I do not see how pointing this out contributes to the problem. It needs to be said.
“try to work together to make sure things like this don’t happen again”
How can we make sure things like this don’t happen again unless we figure out why it happened in the first place?
not saying we shouldn’t do that. just saying that jumping to the blame the crazy right mentality is the easy thing to do and a bit premature here. that attitude prevents people from really looking into this and finding the real reason, which very well could have been the batshit gun toting right wing, but i have yet to have anyone show me actual evidence for the motives behind this. its all conjecture and circumstantial finger pointing.
Guns are fucking stupid. It doesn’t matter how much you look into it, that’s all it comes down to. Sure, hunting and using them in shooting ranges are just fine, but anyone that thinks you should be able to carry them around on the street or keep them loaded in your home are fucking stupid.
It’s shit like this that’ll cause major death tolls in the upcoming zombie war.
But anyways, it’s very unfortunate this happened, and anybody who tries to politicize this before the people are even fucking buried can DIAF.
Ya make guns illegal in the USA.
Then crime will disappear.
That makes a lot of sense.
It will be like when drugs were made illegal and then they vanished.
Thumbs up guy
Responsible gun owners don’t shoot unless they know exactly what/who they are shooting at and where that bullet could end up.
It appears that he was showing the signs of Paranoid Schizophrenia, but that’s a guess.
I don’t think Palin’s ad caused this in any way. Strictly speaking, this doesn’t appear to be a political action, or at least, not mainly political. His youtube videos are rambling nonsense. The only thing that consistently shows is that he was terrified of the Federal gov’t and their “mind control”.
I despise the rhetoric of the Right’s punditry and their politicians. I’m tired of hearing how afraid they are of the world and the people in it. I don’t know if they’re stupid, ignorant, delusional or slick and I know longer care what their reasons are and I do not think that I am compounding the problem by saying so. Their fear mongering and rhetoric is worse than the Left by an order of magnitude. It’s impossible to work together when only one side is willing to move.
err *no longer care…