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BUT IT COULD BE A PERSON, A MAGICAL PERSON, THEY COULD SAVE THE WORLD, MAN
Or, they could be the antichrist –
or they could just take up space and do nothing important
In the end, the sum of the potential outcomes equal out, so the prospect of a future role in society is not a valid argument.
There are far more space takers than Mozarts. Scrape out the womb bugger.
this matter has been closed. Not a human until the 24th week. Please stop bringing it up.
Clever, almost had me, but this analogies actually don’t properly compare. The previous examples don’t have the ability to self actualize their potential. The egg is not only unfertilized, but also broken. It’ can’t become a chicken. Silk needs to be woven by human hands, it can’t become a dress by itself. Same with the acorn, it needs the proper stimuli to germinate.
The Zygote (which this isn’t actually a depiction of), will become a fully actualize without external influences. The mother doesn’t need to do anything for the fetus to grow. It is self actualizing, unlike the other examples.
What is the measure of a human being? Why after 24 weeks it then becomes human? It had the exact same genetic code as before. Genetically, at fertilization it is a member of the species homo sapien.
It just don’t matter…really.
Let the masses argue about when and how….
The haves will do as they please as they have always…
Meanwhile the poor and middle classes will fight over matters of faith and ethics ad finitum, until they depart this earth, and cause them no heed. WTG !
” self actualize their potential ”
Quite a lot of bollocks in those few words, right there.
I disagree with you on the acorn. Barring outside interference, I will develop into a tree.
Also, do you honestly support the concept that DNA is the definition of humanity? Twins have the same DNA. If I kill one, is it only assault because that DNA is still alive? People with Down’s Syndrome techniclly don’t have human DNA. Is it OK to kill them? If you allow for some wiggle room to accomodate mutants with almost human DNA, then why not chimps? Their DNA is 99% human. Fruit flys are 60% human. Is swatting a fly a 60% murder?
The only sensible way to determine humanity is the presence of sentience, sapience, and self awareness. If an organism can both percieve its environment, make judgments based on its observations, and recognizes its own existence in relation to those judgements, then it deserves to be protected.
“If an organism can both percieve its environment, make judgments based on its observations, and recognizes its own existence in relation to those judgements, then it deserves to be protected.”
tl;dr
Fuck retards.
Hard to argue with a well thought out and well presented argument, supported by irrefutable evidence.
Too bad you haven’t got one
The mentally retarded do meet those requirments. I believe the term you are looking for is “anencephalic”.
I used the term “retards” satirically.
The point I tried to make is that your definition is too loose and can cover well past fetuses and onto currently “alive” children and adults who can’t tell the diffence between their filled colostomy bag and a box of puppies.
Bush?
No, you were using “retards” figuratively, and not very well, given the confusion it caused. I am well aware of how broad my definition is. I am also aware that dolphins and most apes fit into this definition. I stand by what I said when I called it the only sensible way to determine the humanity of a subject. I see the killing of infants being as morally wrong as the killing of goldfish. It’s not something I would advocate for, and it should not be performed against the will of the organism’s caretaker, but ultimately it’s not of any real concern to me.
Now, from the point of view of civil ethics I would argue that once the child is born it is a citizen of its country, and as such it is entitled to any protection of law that country offers. I simply hold that an organism, regardless of its DNA, cannot be held to the same sort of moral sanctity we award ourselves until it actually posses that “humanity” granted by our intellect.
The analogies don’t work at all. You wouldn’t show a picture of a chicken egg incubating and say it’s not a chicken. Showing a broken into egg would better fit with an already aborted baby.
You sick bastard, you.
Plus as Geko brought out, silk doesn’t inherently become a dress, so comparing it to something that does inherently become another thing doesnt work either.
finally, that seed is “living” in as much as a seed can effect and take from it’s environment for the purpose of “growth”. If you yank it out from the soil with a coat hanger and put it in a dumpster behind a clinic, you’ve in effect “killed” it.
You sick bastard, you.
Guess this concept isnt as simple as previously stated.
Come back when you are sober enough to make a coherent argument, and maybe we’ll take you seriously.
P.S.: referencing coat hangers is an argument FOR legal abortions, since the coat hangers only come out when abortion is illegal. Nice job fucking up your own argument there, moron.
1. Nice challenge Troll. Point out what was incoherent and i’ll draw your simple-ass a map. I’ll even use crayons if you want.
2. What thread are you reading? We aren’t arguing legality of the abortion concept, therefore the methods used to abort the fetus isn’t on trial here. It doesn’t matter if you use surgery, a flight of steps, coat hangers or a falcon punch. What matters is whether i’m right in thinking that I can do it because it’s only been 23 weeks since I got your useless sister pregnant and the result in her stomach isn’t a “person” yet. (sorry about that btw)
P.S.: On second thought, don’t point anything out. Just STFU.
>The Zygote … will become a fully actualize without external influences.
Sorry, wrong – it will require considerable external influence – support, food, climate control and defense for 9 months or so to fully actualize. Even then it will not be able to live independently for several years.
>it had the exact same genetic code as before.
It will have the same genetic code after it’s dead as well – scientists have found DNA from Neanderthals that is still viable.
So by your statement, it doesn’t matter if we kill it or not as the DNA remains the same.
A newborn baby isn’t a “person” either. It’s just a tiny weird human-like thing that can only do five things: breathe, eat, poop, sleep and cry, and all those things it does as mechanically as a phone that rings when a call comes in.
A newborn baby doesn’t have a mind. It doesn’t have feelings. It just cries a lot. An 8-year-old dog is more “human” than any newborn baby, yet killing a dog isn’t anywhere near as “evil” as killing a newborn baby. All a newborn baby has is the “potential” to become a person. It isn’t a person yet. But funny thing, the same reasoning applies to a 2-week-old fetus.
Judging by potential alone, there’s no meaningful difference between a 2-week-old fetus and a newborn baby; the baby might have realized a bit more of its potential, but ultimately potential is all it really has. And judging by actual capacities, neither could possibly qualify as a person by any stretch of the imagination. So either allow the arbitrary killing of both 2-week-old fetuses and newborn babies, or disallow both. Any other alternative would be irrational and arbitrary.
Yea except for the part where you conveniently forget that a newborn baby unlike a zygote can feel pain and distress and express this and in some way try to protect itself.
A cluster of cell non specific ones at that can’t do shit but ether continue developing into something (possibly) useful or just die depending on external factors.
Granted we could avoid this entire debate in the first place and just ban stupid people from breeding.
That zygote has far less than a 50% chance of reaching the baby stage. First, it has to implant in the uterine lining. Next, it has to not miscarry, which happens in half of all pregnancies. Its a parasite until it gets out of the body.
Its a parasite until (18 years after )it gets out of the body.
Let our powers combine. Egg! Acorn! Worm! Conception!
Go, Planned Parenthood!
By your powers combined, I am Captain Abortion!
I am just going to let the woman decide what to do with her own body on an individual case by case basis.
Yes they have that. It’s called legalising abortion!
the man should totally have some say in the matter
but no one cares about that. FUCK YOU WHORE FOR KILLING MY CHILD
You have to admit that it was in her body. If you were caring it, then you could have decided whether or not to carry it to term. But until men carry, it’s still a woman’s decision.
If she didn’t want it, but you did, would you have taken care of the child for the next 18 years all by your self?
LET ME CLARIFY BY SAYING I AM PRO CHOICE
yes, i would take care of it for far more than 18 years.
and yes, it is her body, and in cases of life or death, the man shouldnt have a say.
but to say that a man has no say over keeping the baby is really discriminatory and total bullshit. what if a woman wants to keep her baby but is forced to have an abortion? in my view, it is the same thing.
if a man doesnt want the baby, but the woman has it anyway, should he be forced to pay child support?
the fetus’s father should have some say in the matter.
As much as I would like to support you in giving the father a say, I can’t see any way to go about implementing it. A quick glance at daytime talk shows is enough to prove that the woman doesn’t always know who the father is. Barring woman from getting abortions without the consent of the father would keep many of the women who most need an abortion from getting one. Add a caveat to the law where the woman can say she doesn’t know who the father is and anyone can just lie their way into the clinic.
I do agree that the father should be able to opt out of child support.
Not gonna happen, nor should it. Not everything is fair. There’s no way to make this fair. At this point, male contraception is available to everyone. No protection > baby > pay up.
what if you were made to have an abortion against your consent?
how is that any different than a man being forced to just accept that a woman wants an abortion against his will?
and “No protection > baby > pay up”, how does this apply to women? a woman can just decide to have an abortion, and not have to “pay up”. why can’t a man just decide that a woman should have an abortion without her consent? oh, it’s her body, right? BIGGEST CHICKENSHIT COP OUT EVER.
They “Guy” ain’t pregnant. That is the difference and it’s a huge one, the only significant one. The foetus is either a person (w/ all the rights associated w/ that), or it’s not (w/ none of those same rights). If it is not a person, then you have no claim over what I do w/ IT.
im not coming at this from whether or not a fetus is a person. i’m coming at this from my view, the view of a father. and regardless of whether or not the thing is a person, there is the fact that 1/2 of the genetic material is mine. genetic material that is mine is part of MY body. to say i have NO claim at all over it is really kinda harsh. if i put my dick in you, that does not mean the dick is no longer my body.
so what gives you the right to make decisions concerning MY body?
You kept your dick, but left the sperm. You can say you’re coming at this from any POV you want, doesn’t matter, biologically the foetus is in the mother and not the father. You have get past this idea that things are fair, biologically, there’s no such thing. It’s not the father’s life that is put to the test by carrying and birthing a baby. I understand your feelings, and I would never do such a thing w/out consultation, but in the end, the decision isn’t yours to make.
there is a way to make it fair. the woman should have to have the baby and give it to the man to raise. and then she should have to pay child support.
and if you are honest and not biased, you will agree that this is exactly fair.
Carrying a child for 9 months, giving birth, then paying child support is hardly the same thing as getting someone pregnant, waiting around for 9 months, then paying child support.
At this point, female contraception is available to everyone. No protection > baby > pay up.
Ah, but women do have another option. How do you feel about the day after pill? Does it bother you that she may be aborting a foetus w/o knowing whether or not she is actually pregnant?
Here’s the thing. If you’re pro-choice, you agree that the zygote/foetus is not a person, not yet human life. If it is not a person, then only one person has a say as to what is to be done w/ it, and that’s the woman.
I understand your feelings though. When I discovered I was pregnant, I had some tough choices to make. Hubby and I went back and forth a few times. Finally I decided to give it a go.
the only reason i am pro-choice is that it is not my place to make nyokki’s decision. even though i am pro-chioce, i beleive the right choice in most cases would be not to kill it. but it is not my place to make your decision.
HOWEVER, i never put a baby inside you, lol. but let’s say i get my wife pregnant. she can go have an abortion without even notifying me. and that is srsly fucked up.
as far as fairness, what about applying that to other civil rights?
sorry, nigger. Not gonna happen, nor should it. Not everything is fair.
you fags want to marry? too bad, Not gonna happen, nor should it. Not everything is fair.
you want a good parking spot you little retard? Not gonna happen, nor should it. Not everything is fair.
Fathers should have rights, too. a man has no say in whether the baby is aborted or born, but he is forced to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars over the course of a couple of decades, even if he didnt want the baby. this is a perfect example of how women are two faced, hypocritical, and live with an expectation of entitlement. well, not all women. but this is a pervasive mindset within our country.
CIVIL RIGHTS FOR EVERYONE, UNLESS YOU ARE A STRAIGHT MAN
I keep getting frustrated by the “Its someone else’s responsibility” mentality that is so pervasive. talking to my grandfather about how he was raised, and how he raised his sons to take responsibility for their own actions really makes me think that so much of the shit we are dealing with comes from that change. its crippling our economy, and loads of stupid lawsuits… and face it… what is the definition of abort? it means to stop, as in abortion is stopping… abort a baby, cancel a baby… kill a baby… same thing… your stopping its life.
SEX MAKES BABIES!!!
It’s biology and there’s nothing fair about it. When you can become pregnant and give birth, you’ll have the same choices. I don’t think I could ever make a decision like that w/out hubby. It would devastate him if I did, I think. In the end though, the choice is solely mine.
Also, if your wife is getting pregnant then aborting w/out telling you, you’ve got some marital issues to work out before deciding to raise another child.
naw, that didnt happen… i used that as an example. i’m not saying she did, i am saying that it happens. and with the millions of abortions that have been done, i have to believe that even a small percentage of abortions done behind a husband/baby daddy’s back would equal a lot of actual abortions done behind a husband/baby daddy’s back
also, if my wife got pregnant then aborted w/out telling me, then that could just as well be attributed to the woman being a cold hearted cunt as it can be to marital issues
I know you weren’t talking about yourself. I was just keeping it in person.
>It’s biology and there’s nothing fair about it.
you dont even see your bias on this issue. the above statement is good enough for the man to just have to deal with, but turn it around on the woman, and is it still good enough for you as a woman to just have to deal with it?
you say, “Carrying a child for 9 months, giving birth, then paying child support is hardly the same thing as getting someone pregnant, waiting around for 9 months, then paying child support.”
well, tough shit, but it’s biology and there’s nothing fair about it.
Ah, I do see how biased I am. Like I said, it’s not fair. It sucks sometimes. Is it fair that you will always be stronger than me? Is it fair that you can have an orgasm in 5 minutes flat? Is it fair that I have to bear all the risks of childbirth, while you get to complain about my mood changes? It is what it is.
Just think of all the sperm that have died.
“I have wiped entire civilizations off of my chest, with a grey gym sock….. Entire nations have flaked and crusted in the hair around my navel….. I have tossed universes, in my underpants, while napping. That is special.” – Bill Hicks
don’t forget eggs that have been daintily disposed of on a tampon
As Bill Hicks said, “You’re not a human being until you’re in my phone book.”
Ceci n’est pas un website.
It’s sad, but the best arguments made here have been marked down the most. 🙁
One thing to consider: countries pay workman’s compensation for injury because of the POTENTIAL a person had to work. For all you know, they could have quit the next day, so why pay? Because they were denied their potential. Arguing against the potential of a fetus is the same as arguing against workman’s comp.
>this is not a difficult conception
My ex wife was several weeks pregnant and literally on the table preparing for an abortion.Physicians had told her that because she had been taking lithium carbonate for years that there was an overwhelming chance that the baby would have lethal heart problem.Statistically that is correct.However,one pediatric heart specialist reviewed the findings and at the last moment pleaded with her to not abort.I`m not at all religious but I thank god for that womans intervention every time that I look upon her now beautiful 20 year old face.Don`t talk about “potentials” to me.This was a miracle.
no dude, that’s a combination of luck and life.
Whatever you care to call it.However you want to phrase it.I,and all my family are thankful that it did`nt happen.And no,I`m not an anti-abortion fanatic.Nor am I pro-abortion,either.I simply don`t have the right to decide for others.
And now I can have sex with that girl and she can get an abortion of her own.
Its called the circle of abortion.
I shall write this poem.
fucking miracles
sometimes it’s just impossible to resist
🙂
Then the two of you made the right ‘choice’.
Fuck anyone who is against abortion due to fetus ‘potential’. Ha. What planet are you on? Any slut in a trailer park with her ankles around her ears can have a baby, and if someone doesn’t want to have a child, then they fucking shouldn’t.
If you really gave a shit about the fetus ‘potential’ you would want it to be born into a loving, intelligent family with the financial support to ensure they go to the best schools, have plenty of activities to fill up their time and make sure they don’t get into trouble to maximise their potential, right?
Funny how you only give a shit about the fetuses that might be aborted, lets forget about the influx of bastard children to 14 year old mothers, child molesters, murderers, the poverty-stricken, people with AIDS, and in foster homes. Existing isn’t a life. Guess what? Sometimes love aint enough to ensure a good life, so why isn’t anyone battling to save the kids that already exist?
Because a lot of people are full of shit and outrageously hypocritical, and it’s easy to argue a situation that probably has never applied to you. As far as I’m concerned abortion saves lives, the impending life of the fetus and the lives of the people who made the mistake. Fuck the patriarchal morons who are so wrapped up in thinking the human race is sacred that they can’t think logically.
>Existing isn’t a life. Guess what? Sometimes love aint enough to ensure a good life, so why isn’t anyone battling to save the kids that already exist?
*applauds*
Even though I don’t agree with you on every subject, which is good, your strong opinions keep coming out in high concentrations of AWESOME.
To add to that, it never ceases to amaze me that the very same people that want to outlaw abortion, are the same ones that want to cut welfare funding. They care about the child right up until it’s born, then say fuck them.
Oh and some of them are FOR capital punishment. You can’t kill an unborn child, but you can kill a ‘potential’ human after they are born. One that even might be ‘potentially’ innocent?
please, don’t generalize like that, you are hurting me
You’re right. I should have said ‘Politician’ because we all know that they aren’t people.
All sarcasm aside, I’ll admit to generalizing, if you’ll admit that SOME of them do. We can just chalk it down to a typo.
My best friend was recommended to be aborted because his mom was still in HS and the guy was an asshole. Well she didn’t.. and then she busted her ass through college and now owns her own business and her son went on to be a Marine to serve this country and after finishing his service is married with a little girl and going back to school while working…
I thank God that she didn’t abort him. Him growing up w/out a dad helped me get through losing my dad to a brain aneurysm when I was 15. (now 27)
And my Dog’s breeder grew up in the crappy foster care system, and was even raped in it, but the children that resulted are good people. And her autisic son is going to make a pretty good programmer someday.
go sit in the corner
Your point?
For starters: I’m Pro-choice, and if I was a woman (No jokes) I would ‘chose’ to have the baby.
Lovely stories, but not useful for the discussion. For every archetypal anecdote for a position, there exists at least one against. I will not put forth general or specific one, but I will state that they exist. You can not win a debate with anecdotes.
Do you think the world population exceeds its ability to sustain itself? If so,
what do you think of logarithmic percentage tax increases for additional children beyond one?
No it doesn’t. Our food output has increased with the population ever since the birth of agriculture.
so true, we throw away so much food. I am actually part of a program to get the trash meat from wall-Mart to feed to dogs
Let me guess: inspired by the League of Reason? More people need to be exposed to this stuff.
www.leagueofreason.co.uk/
www.youtube.com/user/LeagueOfReasonTV
That there is a sperm hitting an egg. The picture should be a fetus ya dumbshits. You don’t abort a sperm hitting an egg. You abort a little jelly bean looking thing. Well human looking jelly bean.
So this picture is incorrect and misleading.
That picture is clearly a Snowball btw
mynameismommy.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/wii5r.jpg
every sperm is sacred
every sperm is saint
if a sperm is wasted,
god gets quite irate.
Damn you! Every time someone posts a MP sketch, I’m on youtube for a 1/2 hour.
Well, if it grows up and resists arrest then gets shot in the back and dies… it deserved it.
Abortion = Preemptive Capital Punishment? (Well there goes the ‘potential’ argument!)
Dude… You clearly missed the reference. 2 AND A HALF YEARS AGO.