Also, none of what has been going on right now lately would have happened if Hamas wouldn’t have opened fire after israel opened the gaza strip. I mean here you had israel starting to co-operate and be a little nicer, and what do they do? They fucking shoot missiles into civillian homes. I’m not saying israel is innocent, israel has done their fair share of shitty things as well but they have not attacked unprovoked. remember those rubber bullets they were using against civillians? Yeah they had steel cores and were killing and paralyzing people)

@...JamesTuskGeorge:

And the palestinian’s would be just fine if they had accepted the UN’s offer of becoming Israeli citizens. The jews and “palestinians”were living together just fine before the formation of israel.

@...dieAntagonista: honestly i don’t know what to think. The Torah is a very complex book seemingly filled with contradiction and redundancy. The whole point of the form of Judaism i align myself with is to weed out all the “bullshit” ( for lack of a better term) without being blasphemous to god. It’s fairly easy to do once you realize that though the torah may be inspired or the direct words of god it was penned by humans. Humans who are capable of cherry picking and “editing” the information that they see as appropriate. And then there is the question of god as a perfect omnipotent being, but that is a whole other spiel. But regretfully i have grown rusty on my torah over the years, largely because after my “atheist” phase i began looking for historical/secular justification for my holy land’s existence and stopped consulting the torah. I’m sorry if that doesn’t fully answer your question but my knowledge on the torah is spotty at best. However i can offer you this;

As far as the whole israeli/palestinian conflict goes the torah does support the idea of a two state nation. Infact you can be jewish and be both Pro-Israel and Pro-Palestine ( which is the view i personally agree with). This article from Jewish Community Online Explains it best. www.thejc.com/articles/2008502857/torah-says-you-can-be-israel-and-palestine.

@...dieAntagonista:

Well it depends really, There is a lot of debate about whether or not israel should be a nation. I can’t provide any references so i take no offense if you do not believe me. But, from what i recall from a conversation from a rabbi oh so many years ago was that there wasn’t any solid biblical evidence for either the existence or non existence of israel. In other words the words are too vague to concretely say ” yes it says clearly that israel is to be an actual nation for the jews” Or to reversely say ” No it says that israel is to never be a nation.” Sorry for the vague answer but as i said before my current knowledge is spotty at best. Personally i believe that the whole point of the exodus from egypt was so the jews could establish a homeland of their own , hence creating israel. Any idea what specific verses make an argument against the formation of israel?

@...dieAntagonista: Hmm i concede your point there.
I have been flipping through the old testament with my dad and so far on our end we haven’t really seen anything that suggests israel is not supposed to be a nation, at least biblically speaking. But the points nkuk.org/ bring up certainly are interesting and are most likely with merit. It’s a very interesting idea, and i must admit i am inclined to agree with them. The only issue i have with it is that this is: They are assuming that jesus wasn’t the messiah. Now for my own kooky reasons i believe jesus was the messiah, but i don’t have any solid factual reasoning for it. On the other hand the orthodox/non messianic jews don’t have a 100% solid case against the messianics either. So that leaves us with an interesting problem. How are we to determine with absolute certainty that the formation of israel is legitimate religiously speaking? We can argue all day about it but ultimately we won’t find a 100% proveable answer. As far as zionism goes I guess i have a knee jerk reaction to the term zionist considering i see it largely being spouted by neo-nazis and far-right republicans and far left democrats/liberals. I never thought of it as a non-racial descriptor.

@...JamesTuskGeorge: \
And I will see your lack of evidence as intellectual surrender. Attacking the sources politcal/religious alignment does not change the fact that there are absolutely no official laws in israel that even remotely resemble apartheid. PLEASE PROVIDE FACTUAL EVIDENCE TO BACK THIS UP. Pull up an official Israeli law document that supports this view. I’m not talking about semi vague wording that could be construed that way, i am not talking about corrupt individuals in the israeli military I AM TALKING ABOUT HARD DOCUMENTED LAW. As far as ” fair and balanced ” information goes PLEASE PROVIDE AN EXAMPLE.