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@...ColombianMonkey: ROFL… Wow… Paris Hilton is living proof that ignorance can indeed be bliss…
So far as the question about why people must experience things for themselves in order to learn, I agree with most of what Nyokki said, though I disagree on one point.
I agree that it has a lot to do with the way we learn. We take all new experiences and information and our brains categorizes this data so that we can make generalizations based on it that can be applied to future experiences and information.
But because we also need to be able to organize new information within the framework of our past experiences, we also pass new data through a filter that tells us to disregard any information that does not readily fit into any of the pre-existing categories we have mentally created.
This process makes it easier to sift truth from falsehood from the massive amounts of data we process every day, however it is a double edged sword. In the absence of a similar personal experience, we often discard information that might actually be true, because we lack the personal experience that would otherwise have created the mental framework or category that we would normally have placed this new information in. As Nyokki so aptly put it: “Pics or it didn’t happen.”
The only point where I disagree with Nyokki is on the idea that we need physical experience, direct knowledge or something more than anecdotal evidence in order to believe something.
I’ve found that some people will actually internalize and believe what they want to believe, even if the only evidence for it is anecdotal/hearsay, while others decide to ignore what they do not want to believe, even in the face of overwhelming physical, verifiable evidence from personal experience.
I’ve seen people go through life holding firmly on to entirely baseless beliefs that they have neither personal experience of, nor seen physical evidence for, simply on the basis of the most meager of anecdotal evidence. And I’m not talking about Theism…
soooo we actually prepare our minds to not believe these stuff, because to filter truth between lie without proof is impossible, so we revert everything a lie until proven otherwise, but that has such negative effects that ppl who are telling the truth but cannot get proof so we send them wacko house, so were destroying a innocent life. just because we wouldn’t rely on basic instinct to trust him or her, talk about humanity.
You’re both right. I didn’t mean to sound as if that’s the only way we learn. I do think it’s the way in which most of us “know” things. The younger we are, the less able we are to ‘filter’ out non-truths. It’s why an adult can make a child believe almost anything if it’s repeated often enough. In the 80s and 90s, we had a huge problem (here in the States) w/ tales of molested children, en masse. It was insane. Child care centers that that performed sexual acts on young children, w/ animals and satanic rights. The things these kids said were unbelievable. As it turned out, it was unbelievable. The kids were coached and didn’t even know it. The questions asked were leading and in almost every case the suggestions came from the adult questioners. If what these children had said was true, there would have been unmistakable physical evidence on their bodies. There were none. The most famous example was the McMartin case in California in the mid 80s. I remember being glued to the TV watching this play out.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial
www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/psychology/mcmartin_daycare/1.html
umm okay that is very disturbing.but anyhow as i was saying there is one complete huge vital fault in teachings (noting associated with school) and where i say some people do NOT have a right to have a child. i know this will never happen because to some it’s unrighteous and each party of side have both vital comments about it so i will say both.
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if you didn’t understand my scribble, what i am saying is that basicly in this nature, cannot say human because it happens with animals also. is that there is a simple process you born and you’re parents teach you and educate you about everything you need to know.
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and since we have our “variations” within us, not everyone KNOWS or DOES educate there child as should be. now as in another topic www.myconfinedspace.com/2008/12/31/buy-a-vowel/#comments that i explained to englishelectriclightning. if we all had parent who teach us the right stuff and make sure we don’t turn into demonic animal/children abusing woman. as i am i always try to look at the logic source of a problem i think some people
umm okay that is very disturbing.but anyhow as i was saying there is one complete huge vital fault in teachings (noting associated with school) and where i say some people do NOT have a right to have a child. i know this will never happen because to some it’s unrighteous and each party of side have both vital comments about it so i will say both.
_________________________________________________
if you didn’t understand my scribble, what i am saying is that basically in this nature, cannot say human because it happens with animals also. is that there is a simple process you born and you’re parents teach you and educate you about everything you need to know.
_________________________________________________
and since we have our “variations” within us, not everyone KNOWS or DOES educate there child as should be. now as in another topic www.myconfinedspace.com/2008/12/31/buy-a-vowel/#comments that i explained to englishelectriclightning. if we all had parent who teach us the right stuff and make sure we don’t turn into demonic animal/children abusing woman. as i am i always try to look at the logic source of a problem i think some people need to be neutered (is that how i say it?). think about it. we have “GOOD & SMART” Educators. want to see some bad parent examples? go watch MTV. i was watching how this girl getting made into, she wanted to become a skater and MTV became her dreams and her MOM doesn’t want her to skate and cussed off the trainer (who looks hot btw). so like this child who is hardly happy, haves a big smile who gets to meet famous skaters including tony hawk, basically her dream and she gets a bf. and her mom doesn’t support her. later on she approve but come on where did she learn to parent?. and i look at the source. the parent who fucked up. so call what i saw on TV a money laundering move but it’s a example what really happens all over the world mostly in those uneducated American places (note: they do have smart Americans also & I’m not here to accuse).
Anyhow i just want to express how this procedure can be so easy manipulated and ripped apart. quick (no throughout thinking) dreth’s proposition : wipe out humanity (at least the bad part). but something so so so so so important to us why haven’t we worked on a smart effective solution toward this formula?
crap srry for the double post thingy
@...nyokki: Yikes… I’ve come to consider most education systems, here in the US at least, little more than controlled indoctrination institutions, where kids are taught to think like everyone else. It’s rather irritating really…
@...ColombianMonkey:
And that is the question of the millennium. I think it takes a rather radical level of “out of the box” thinking to solve those problems, and unfortunately I’ve observed that the ideas of most radical/free thinkers tends to get marginalized on a regular basis in this society…
@...Phyreblade: And 20 years later we get a bastardized version in the curriculum.
the thing what is holding free thinkers/radical thinker is that from birth your are “branded” with this formula so you think and live in the space of this box. your mind is thought and stirred in this milkshake.. so it’s kinda of ultimately hard to come up with something that is 100% different than this “formula”. or am i wrong.
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2 much serious-ness so relief—> www.thefunnypets.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/monkeys.jpg
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how do you quote?
@...ColombianMonkey: use html blockquote.
@Phyreblade:
“Yikes… I’ve come to consider most education systems, here in the US at least, little more than controlled indoctrination institutions, where kids are taught to think like everyone else. It’s rather irritating really…”
Really?
I mean, when you get down to it… Thats not irritating. Thats probably the sole reason we are still employed/happy right now. If everyone was a unique and independent flower, then the world would collapse. Because, if everyone was as rational/driven… not driven…., as say…. us, then there would not be a single person in the lower class/ lower industries. And we’d be pretty close to communism. WHich… would kinda blow.
So consider the irrationality and lack of individuality a blessing, not irritating, but comforting. Because those stupid motherfuckers are cleaning your house and office, flipping your burgers, and fixing me a scotch.
@...Dr.Devine: i think if everyone was so rational we would have came up with a solution to it.
@ColombianMonkey:
Incorrect. Because to much rationality in a group leads to it dividing, and thus it ceases to be a group. If everyone was rational, then the end result would be fissures, etc. There wouldn’t be any sheeple to take out my trash, or any sheeple to die so I don’t lose money, or any sheeple, such as good old riverdaledragon, to make stupid comments for us to analyze and ridicule. So, you see, without sheeple, there are no people.
hmm but since we are different we will start to have like a sort of level of ranks.. the who is smarter thing and we will be back to day 1 again ^^
@...nyokki:
Why am I not surprised…
@...Dr.Devine:
I dunno man, I’m with ColombianMonkey on this. I think he’s right. If everyone were free thinking innovators, there wouldn’t be a need to have anyone flipping burgers, doing laundry or taking out the trash, because we’d have a myriad of technologies to take care of all of that for us.
We’d all be able to pursue our real interests without having to worry about all these mundane details. And I don’t think that having a stratified society is a necessity either. Truly rational people should be able to disagree without creating strife.
It’s usually fear, hatred, prejudice and pride that causes rifts, not rationality. And remember that the point of this is to create free radical thinkers. This will inherently create plenty of diversity of thought to keep life funny/interesting/etc.
As for losing money, who cares, so long as you still get to do all the things you would have used it for. Money is the ultimate artificial construct. It’s from nothing, and that’s where it should go.
Think about it. If all of the day to day tasks of sustaining human life were handled by self maintaining technology, automatons, etc. and we if we could have machines produce any amount of whatever we wanted, then there would be no need for money.
And it wouldn’t matter if you are born a moron or a prodigy, your needs would still be attended to, at no cost to anyone, just like anyone else. Worst case scenario, we end up becoming Eloi with no Morlocks to thin us out…
But of course most folks automatically relegate this idea to some wacko, futuristic, Star Trek, Federation of Planets utopia mumbo jumbo and dismiss it as unrealistic. The sad thing is, even if it’s possible, we’ll never get there with that attitude…
@...Dr.Devine: Why does rationality lead to fissures? I’m not disagreeing, I’m just not sure what you mean when you say that.
@...Phyreblade: What about the interim? We won’t wake up one day and have self sufficient robots and technology to do our monotonous deeds for us. What are the sheeple doing meanwhile and what are the rationalists working on first, the philosophy or the actuality? I’ve always been a fan of Roddenberry’s vision of the future. I just don’t know how we’d get there.
@...ColombianMonkey: What?
@...Phyreblade: Oh and no cost? To Who?
@...Dr.Devine: How does one make sure they’re not a sheeple? I want to make sure I’m not one.
First off, Colombian monkey was dead on, the systems that always occur with humans have some sort of rank.
Also, there is an important distinction between rational and intelligent. Intelligence is something you achieve at birth and carry with you, you either have it or you don’t Its not a term of art, but rather a sort of fact.
Rationality, or rationale, however, occurs over time. Its like the taste of a wine, or exactly how beautiful a sunset is compared to another. In other words, its subjective.
The technology would have to be conceived by the intelligent, not the rational. Thus, we would still need manned labor, as the amount of intelligent people would stay around the same. Also, worthy of note, though that may be utopian, and to a degree unrealistic, I don’t want that world Phyrelblade points out. Whats the motivation do to do anything good, if machines do all the basic things for you? We’d be slaves to our own eventual laziness, and the few that were intelligent wouldn’t notice or care that they were different. All progression would come to a screeching halt. And, of course progression is good.
That said…
ANd the rationality would, over time, cause rifts. Because, Once again, rationality is ultimately subjective. And even rational people are capable of listing other people as less rational than they are, etc. Which creates further class distinction based on the rationality of positions, etc.
The fissures I mentioned are caused by the difference in the rationale and reasoning people use. If everyone is able to use different rationale, or be able to formulate different educated opinions. The eventual result is a whole boatload of folks who don’t agree on crucial issues, and all decide to take their ball and go home. There is no ideal in that. Society collapses, and my drink stops getting freshened. Nobody wins.
And, to nyokki…
You aren’t a sheeperson… sheeple? I don’t even know…
Anyways, like I said, its in the end a bit subjective. But my test is this: do you just parrot the words someone on the telly says without understanding the meaning, or do you actually form your own thoughts and perform your own actions?
If you do the obviously rational one… then there you go.
@...Dr.Devine: Yay! I’m not a sheeple. Different rationales is what I thought you meant but wasn’t sure. I think it would take a near extinction (Ã la Dreth) to make it possible to put the most intelligent people in a position to make the important decisions. There doesn’t seem to be a way to get around a caste system based on intelligence. Do we determine intelligence by IQ tests or something else?
@...Dr.Devine: Baaaa? But you are right, I would not fit well in the society Phyreblade invisions…hmm big boat headed into he unknown so as not to shatter utopia for the rest, that I can do.
We cavemen came to terms with being socially packs/prides, with Alphas and rank whatnot.
You evolved HomoSapiens are still using the same basic structures we adopted from the animals, with a lot of pretty window dressing. So live up to that “Evolved” title and use those big brains your kind is always bragging about, and come up with something new or workable.
@nyokki: I honestly don’t know how you test intelligence. I just know that there are intelligent folk, and then there are those who… aren’t. Which isn’t really an insult to them… its just the way it goes.
ANd speaking of extinction… anyone care for a topic shift?
WHats your preferred form of apocalypse?
I pick zombieocalypse.
@SumoSnipe: It doesn’t sound very idyllic, does it? It seems like I’d get a case of the “fuck its” after about twenty minutes.
Interesting side note on hierarchies. It’s very different for groups of women rather than men. We do have a loose hierarchy but nothing like the levels of all male groups. We tend to coordinate as a group and do a lot of multi-tasking. Even if we have a designated leader, we don’t automatically adhere to her rules and would have no problem dethroning her w/out going through any recognized chain-of-command. The other thing I’ve noticed about women (this a very general observation, not science) is that we have a more pliable set of morals. Ours tend to be less defined objectively and more likely to be case sensitive. We certainly are capable of bending them so that they’re more practical and less universal. Kant would not be pleased.
Quick response to that…
The hierarchy fromed by women when left to their own devices is very similair to that of mens. The hierarchy that women follow, however is more implied and innate. The only differences, truly, are that men feel a need to classify and name their hierarchy, whereas women don’t. The official position doesn’t matter, as your implied position puts you at a higher ranking. But other than that, spot on on the pliable morals and so on.
@...Dr.Devine: I’d go for a Mad Max kind of apocalypse.
I knew I wasn’t quite getting what I wanted to convey (which in some ways exemplifies my point). Something like: (For the women)If there’s a job that needs to get done, the “leader” will say a job needs done and then let the rest figure it out, as long as it gets done and there’s no bloodshed everything is cool. This is not true when we’re telling men what needs to be done. For some reason you guys keep trying to everything wrong (What’s up wit dat?). Once you get to the “animal” world, matriarchal groups can be vicious, but there’s still a coordinated thinking that doesn’t occur in patriarchal groups.
@...nyokki: How do we go about getting there? Well for starters, I think we actually have to start thinking about it as a long term goal at a *global* level. I don’t that’s not going to happen anytime soon. We are still invading other countries for stupid reasons, and are too vested in a differential, hierarchical and egocentric way of thinking. It’s gonna be a while.
And so far as no cost, I mean to the populace at large. Part of our problem now is that we are locked into a currency/barter system because we *have* to rely on one another in order for things to get done, and must create an artificial bond of trust via currency.
Now what if no human needed to do anything? What If everything was automated, and machines grew crops, built houses, tended farms, maintained themselves, etc.? We wouldn’t have to worry about people slacking off because it would make no difference to our ability to live as we wished. And if anyone could get food and clothing and housing at will, then you wouldn’t need to steal, rob etc…
@...Dr. Devine
The problem, as I see it, is that everyone is still trying to apply the rules of the current paradigm to one to which they do not apply.
Let me put it to you this way. Why would it matter if someone decided to slack off all day, if it wouldn’t make any difference to your ability to have a roof over your head and a full fridge for the rest of your life?
For me personally, even if someone promised to clothe, feed and house me in luxury for the rest of my life I would not be able to just sit there and do nothing. I’d go mad. there are so many things I’d want to do, so many things I’d like to research, study and learn about, and now, I’d have the freedom to do just that.
And I know a lot if people who are like that. So the idea that nobody will do anything just because they are not required to is a flawed one. Scientists will continue to be scientists, artists will continue to be artists, etc… They will simply have more time to pursue what they want to pursue. and if they just want to be slackers, well it’s be no skin off your back.
And so far as the hierarchy thing, yes, there will be hierarchies, but it would not apply in the same way. We would move from authoritative/power hierarchies to functional hierarchies where teams are formed and lead by subject matter experts, for a specific purpose, not for the purposed of control or oversight.
Peoples motivations, goals, ideals would be different, it’s would be an entirely different social paradigm from what we have today. And yes, differences in rational perception might cause disagreements, but these disagreements would not cause the system to fail. They should simply spawn alternate schools of thought.
I think it is only egocentrism or pride that makes people decide that their way is the only right way to look at something, that is what causes rifts, and I’d think that we’d have passed that stage at that point.
@...Phyreblade: I do like the Star Trek vision. I just think you’re not incorporating some basic human natures. I don’t know how far into the future we’d have to go before our less than virtuous tendencies were bred out.
I feel as you do about loving the idea that I would be free to pursue those things I find fascinating. In truth, that’s what I’ve already been doing my whole life. I’m fully aware of how good my life’s been. How many people get to spend 3/4 of their life more or less doing whatever interested them w/out worry about how “useful” it is to their future?
EPIC REPLY CHAIN IS EPIC
(c-c-c-c-combo breaker!)
@...Sticky: How dare you!
I think we just come here to start a new subject rather than the forums.
@...nyokki: I don’t think human nature should really pose any problems. I would submit that human nature, our perceptions and mentalities of reality and the world today, are the sum total of what we have been raised to believe, and what we have learned from and our past experiences.
Now what happens if you change both of those? Even though it would take a while to get there, a person born into such a Roddenberrian society would not share the same fundamental perception of the world as the one we have today. In effect we would (theoretically at least) have also changed the fundamentals of human nature. Hopefully for the better.
No, it won’t be perfect by any means, and it would probably be far, far, far into the future before we got to that point, but at least by then we will have learned to reign in our more base natures, resolved the fundamental challenges of human survival, and would have more time to go on and accomplish bigger better things…
And very few get to spend most of their lives pursuing their interests without such worries. You are very fortunate… If I were the envious type I’d be Kermit green right now… 🙂
@...Sticky: P.S. your blasphemy in the presence of the moldy bible has earned you a special place in hell…
The hell of being cut to pieces by ill tempered sea bass with lasers attached to their freakin’ heads for all eternity…
@...Phyreblade: I know. I admit I’ve been devil’s advocate. I hope for (and pursue myself) a future you’re talking about.
@...Phyreblade: you’re automated process resembles wall-e to me, why? because we are teaching a old dog new ways, and the old dog will carry it’s old ways into mix of new ways thus resulting in wall-e fatty people. if the future were freshly restarted and thought and educated the proper way then i would say a yes to you’re plan. and i think we entered a beginning of the end. we are fighting each other for resources to drive our daily life, and not changing it instead. but that is expected still. we are basically the most intelligent creatures to kill one another. thus i recall the circle of evolution. ice age……. human world ……… ice age……unexpected world……
the circle of nature. repeats itself. and to know maybe billions of years on these other planets, that are around us they were inhabited with something or someone and it just came out of the ice age from that planet. it’s those headache what if questions.
@...ColombianMonkey: Well you might be right, we may end up becoming a Wall-e society. Or Eloi. Or an Idiocracy. But these are just possible outcomes. They are no more certain to occur than the ideal society we want.
But, we have an advantage over those people. The fact that these books and movies are out there means that, at some level, there is a conscious recognition that these are the possible pitfalls of an hypermodernized society, and so we may be able to actively take steps to avoid it happening as we get closer to our goal…
And if you look back at the long term history of man, you’ll see that even though we take frequently many steps backwards every now and then, we always eventually end up taking at least one more step forwards than we do backwards…
which one reason I’m proud to be a human and not a animal or a lump of poo
@Phyreblade: Alright, here’s my problem with this ideal. If all does go as planned, and the machines do all our work for us, and we have all the food/ whatever we need… well, basically, you just listed off the basic ideas that communism is founded on. Everyone is provided for via an even keel system. And, of course, it could only work via machine.
And though this at first glance seems ingenious, whats my will to live in a society such as this? Other than sex, I can think of no other real reason to even get up in the morning. ANd even then, the sex in afforementioned society would probably be sos easy to get, seeing as everyone will probabaly be about as bored as I am, that it would still not be worth being alive. I’d pop myself one by the end of the week.
@Sticky: I’m considering hacking your wordpress and posting your email on /b/. A fate worse than ill-tempered sea bass with laser beams attached to their heads. (Did mutant fit somewhere in that equation? I believe it did…)
Oh, and back to where I was at…
If everyone was rational, and yet had nothing to do while being rational, wouldn’t that sort of screw the point of everyone being rational? And didn’t I point out that intelligent and rational aren’t synonymous?
And as for egocentrism causing people to beleive their way isn’t the only right way.. People can still view someone elses interpretation, in detail, and beleive that they are correct. Even from another viewpoint, you can still hold true to your original opinion. So In reality, there would just be more viewpoints to view ones original opinion from. Which would mean more justification for the inevitable rifts.
As for the going mad just sitting there…. I wouldn’t just sit there. I pop myself in the head. Quickly. Because I couldn’t stand it. In the past, all great achievements were made based around one general principle… that we want to live, and unless we make this innovation, we are all gonna die. And I’m not referring to the fridge, but things like electricity, healthcare, domestication of animals, etc. SO what I’m saying is, without some sort of motivation, other than that whole “your work is its own reward” bullshit, I would be losing motivation key to my being. And thus, I would need to cease to be what I am. And that means either kill myself, or change into someone completely different.
Which I won’t do if I can help it.
And really, we will never reach this society, not because people think it impossible, but because it is not society. Maybe for the machines, but not for the humans, not people, humans, within this system.
It would be worse than the sheeple we have right now. At least the sheeple have the potential to be great under the watch of a talented shepherd. But this doesn’t even have that.
@Colombian Monkey:
…. Fuck yeah. For the whole “the world is going to end anyways” argument being pulled into this.
Hm. Mad Max or Fist of the North Star style….with Zombies! But yeah, we are all going to hell in a handbasket for this thread according to some, so it might as well be interesting
@...nyokki: Color me lazy. It is easier to post here than go hunting though the forums, and there is no hit-miss nobody home like with the chatroom thingy that hurts my eyes with its tiny tiny screen….
@...Dr.Devine:
If your only goal in life is to have sex and exploit those less well off than you are, and you are unable to come up with any better way to spend your time, then you’ll be screwed (both literally and figuratively). But that is not a failing of the society, that is all you… 😛
But ultimately, I think you are falling into the same trap I described earlier. This always seems to be the problem with ideas that think too far outside of the box. People still try to make correlations between aspects of the current paradigm they exist in, to the new one to which they do not apply.
The very idea of communism would be a construct without meaning in this society. What I am desribing is *not at all* the ideology upon which communism is based. There is still private ownership, there is still the individuality of ideas, it does not all become public domain unless you wish it.
And my greatest peeve of the communist way of thinking, that I might have to be poor, regardless of how much or how hard I worked, because the rest of the population are slackers, would never occur, because *none* of that matters if you all get housed, clothed and fed regardless of what anyone else does.
This idea will not make any sense until you stop trying to interpret it in terms of present day socioeconomic norms…
Rationality/intelligence and being active/finding things to do have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Neither rationality nor intelligence has a point in and of themselves, they are either inherent or cultivated. And neither of them has any bearing on one ability to pursue anything of interest.
An intelligent person can, and often will, find something to do (other than blow their brains out) and if a mentally handicapped person simply enjoys throwing rocks into a stream, that’s what they’ll do. It’s those with no aspirations beyond existing who might not make it under that society, which would, in fact, probably be the natural order of things.
And the rifts thing, you have to remember, different view points do not create rifts. They only create different viewpoints. Differences in ideologies is not where strife comes from.
I have disagreements with people all the time. If I were to apply your logic, that should mean that I must go Jihad on them for having different opinion or point of view than mine. But that does not happen. Yet that is what you are effectively arguing, and I believe it to be a highly flawed argument.
@...SumoSnipe: I have the same problem w/ the chat room, that and it moves so quickly. I generally don’t pay constant attention and end up backtracking trying to figure out the conversation. RSS feeds for the forums keep me updated as do emails for mcs threads.
@...Phyreblade: I’d have to go with devine on the part of becoming bored, but not on the sex thing. i can truthfully say i rather an enhanced communication between a man and a woman, the feeling of being connected into one, it creates a feeling of soo much blissfull joy to have your arms around them and stare at them in there eyes. that is why true love ever happens “once” in a lifetime and the most hardest thing to find, but what people fail to acknowledge is that it starts from within. And surly I’d rather that over hot naughty sex any day. but that’s who i am.
——–
On the bored topic, trying to think/feel most logically i could. i would have to say if i didn’t have the hard work and everything, a curse of pain and a bottomless pit of despair would be upon me. care to share feeling? think about the movie I am legend, when will went in the store and pretends and talk to the mannequin, the pain he felt, no reason to continue, now think on that emphasis of that feeling to if everything is automated, i wouldn’t have the joy of waking up everyday and being happy about it. it would literally rip my soul and heart from within to out. faith, not religious faith but faith of something to believe in, something to feel pride for doing and achieving as a very special mind you are given upon.a reason to work harder, a reason to strive for better. it’s a great feeling when in the tram a old lady falls down and you help her up and she say’s thank you and give you a smile and everyone just watched and didn’t helped, if we have a robot or whichever to do that. I would truly feel empty, as i say without purpose even thou, i educate myself for the better. what use am i if a automated process replaces me. i think we are a puzzle of a bigger picture, as seconds,minutes,hours,days,weeks,years,decades past every life experience, every single thing you have done will be a pot of gold filled with wisdom and knowledge. for what? for when we are older and much wiser, our great and final purpose to make “one” extra step more towards evolution. is to teach our kids, there future to do the righteous, excel and be the very best. to give them something you never have.to know that you’re a part of a system that it’s sole purpose is to evolve into something better than what is already. as i say to one of man’s greatest treasure, “to share because you care”.
Think of what Phyreblade is saying more in terms of the original Star Trek series. There is still much to achieve and do, yet most basic needs are met. While humans have passed a certain threshold, there are other societies that haven’t. There does seem to be a niche for every personality type.
@...ColombianMonkey:
I am not talking about a society of isolation. You will be able to interact with anyone you wished, to have whatever relationships you want.
You could help old lady cross the street, or kids do their homework, or leave the technology behind and go camping old school style. You could solve problems, help others, whatever you would like to do, you would be able to do it. The technology would be designed to enhance your quality of life, not to limit it.
And I still don’t understand where you think you won’t have any hard work, or get bored. There would be lots of hard work if you really wanted it. If you want to build houses by hand or be a doctor or an accountant or an artist, work hard and take pride in your work, you could do that too. It’s not like the technology would stop you.
In fact you would probably use the technology to help advance whatever profession or field you decided to go into. The only difference is that you wouldn’t starve if you decided not to.
@...nyokki:
Yes, you’ve got it, that is exactly what I am trying to describe… 🙂
@...Phyreblade: maybe i got out of context here but maybe jumping in with this too fast. i think we could approach different ways rather than this automated process
Just be cause the tech isn’t designed to do something specifically doesn’t mean it will be a side effect. A good example is TV. At its conception and creation, Tv was never intended to become the zombie creating laziness generating monstrosity it has become. And yet, here it is.
ANd your society is just a little too ideal. How do we get off of the money system, exactly? You take the socioeconomic norms for granted. The reason they are in place is that competition, the feeling to win, and the feeling of watching the other guy lose, is crucial in the human character. And where does all this food to feed the hungry come from? Where does all this land to house the homeless come from? I’d assume it some how comes from people who own all that land……
@...Phyreblade: What you are describing reminds me of a book “Steel Beach” by…Lynn(?)Varley. Apologies if I misnamed the author, I read it a few years ago. Although in it mankind had the tech, but still had a few leftover problems in the mental side of it.
@...Dr.Devine: and as a landowner Guess what I do to uninvited guests? But not to fear, You folks are invited. Even riverdaledragon. After all, whats a fiesta without a pinata?
@...ColombianMonkey:Well it doesn’t *really* have to be automated. I think that is usually the most efficient way to do what we want to do, but it’s by no means the only way. The presence of the technology would be there to make it easier, not to force you to use it.
@...Dr.Devine:
I think you are missing the point. TV was designed for nothing more than information and entertainment. TV does exactly what it was designed to do. Anyone can decide to turn of the TV whenever they want. The fact that they decide to plant themselves in front of it is not the TVs fault, it theirs.
Currency has absolutely nothing to do with competition. It is, at best, simply a measure, an artificial means of assigning a consistent, easily recognizable value to goods and services. The fact that money is often viewed as a measure of success is purely circumstantial. You can experience the thrill of victory or the agony of defeat with or without money.
And I am not so much taking the socioeconomic norms for granted, as much as ignoring them altogether. In a society where resources are all from renewable sources, and in plentiful supply, you won’t need to buy anything, because there would be no shortage, no need to meter it, no risk of depriving someone else of anything.
Lets take food, for instance. In a highly advanced Roddenberrian society, we might have replicators to make it for us. And there would be little waste as everything would be made on the spot, and anything we didn’t eat could just get chucked back into the reserves, probably even our waste material could be recycled in this manner. The need to create new produce would be next to nothing.
And so far as homelessness, I don’t think there wouldn’t be any homelessness. In a society where building materials an energy is plentiful, and self maintaining machines could keep building houses for nothing, how would there be any homeless people? There is so much unused land on this planet of ours, we wouldn’t need to take any from anyone else. And I’d bet that at that point we would probably have started terraforming other planets anyway, so that might even be a moot point.
And how do we get there? technology. The planet is rife with an abundance of renewable energy and material resources. All we need are the right technologies to harness them. You gotta think outside the box man! You have an imagination, use it!!
You know what confuses me? How there are no ads on 4chan. You could make a bloody killing, depending on what your selling…
@...SumoSnipe:
I’m sure, there will still be people issues. People are people. I’m not saying people will become perfect, I’m just proposing that developing an environment of abundance would eliminate some of the more widespread socioeconomic issues we face today. People are less likely to resort to crime if they can have a full stomach and a cold beer in hand whenever they please…
@...Dr.Devine:
LOL… you’re right… Not for lack of trying though, it looks like 4Chan actually has a link for advertising. I’ll bet they charge an arm and a leg for the kind of traffic they pull in though…
HOLY MOTHER OF FUCK.
WE NEED TO SUMMARISE THIS SHIT AND SELL IT AS A BOOK.
MCS is taking up all my Internet time. Reading and posting the comments on here. Then also posting on the forums. Ugh.
Give me a few hours until I have read all your magnificent thoughts and I’ll give you my 2 cents.
@dieAntagonista: I almost gave up trying to read through it all and post…. but yeah. As you can see, here I am. ANd what really sucks is you go away for maybe a day, and the amount of comments going into this thing seem to triple. Its bloody irritating is what it is. But still enjoyable.
And…
yeah.
I think we will probably hit 9000 comments if we keep this up. ANd then we could sell it as a book. Called, of course, the moldy bible. ANd it will be about anything and everything that came up on this comment chain.
1. Controversial picture posted
2. Guy attempts to defend religion in the face of a thousand atheists.
3.Guy fails, and leaves.
4.???
5.Profit!
@...Dr.Devine: lmao
@...dieAntagonista: Yep, me too. The only reason I’m keeping up is because I’m not working and I get emails and have RSS feeds. I’m here waaaaay too much, but I’m having fun. I can’t do all this and the chatroom though. Something g=had to give.
The Moldy Bible is omnipotent… 1250+ comments so far. 7750 to go before Tiki puts a price on our heads…
Why would he kill us? We are generating him profit. He should be thanking us. Hell, he should be worshipping us.
Ok noob question: what is RSS? and should I have them?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSS_(file_format)
I use igoogle as my home page and that allows me to subscribe to rss feeds.
@...Dr.Devine: LOL good point. Up until the worship part. Somehow I just can’t visualize Tikigod groveling at our feet…
@...SumoSnipe: RSS feeds are great. But also the work of the devil. I could easily spend my entire day just reading RSS feeds…
But Nyokki’s doin it rite. If you use a personalized iGoogle or Yahoo home page, you can subscribe to any sites RSS feeds. Among other cool things…
Shit on a stick this thread is still going?
@Phyreblade: I meant us as a collective. Because the majority of the posters on this thread are also the top commenters of all time. So you basically provide for tiki’s car payments…. and pay for his kids braces.
@...SumoSnipe: This is my home page w/ all the RSS feeds.
img387.imageshack.us/img387/5277/121bi4.jpg
img83.imageshack.us/img83/5748/122uw4.jpg
Hmmm that looks waaaaaaay complicated. I think I will hold off on that untill I am much more proficient with this 21st century stuff.
you all suck. fuckers.
@...colin: dare you to say it again.
@...colin: www.youtube.com/watch?v=2u3c5z45V8g
@...Phyreblade: Hah! Good one.
Anyone else note how long it takes this page to load now. 🙂
@nyokki:yes, I do. And its a point of pride I think.
@...nyokki: LOL yep! We are teh all powarfull!!!
@...Dr.Devine: @...Phyreblade: I’ll contribute til we hit a full minute to load.
srry for absence, too much drinks party and sucky hangovers
@nyokki: Why just a minute? Why not a full HALF AN HOUR?
@...colin: Yes. I do. In a happy wet ‘my girlfriends screams of ecstasy shake the paint off of the wall’ kind of way. But you will not have the pleasure of knowing that talent of mine. If you wish, you may take riverdaledragons’ place over the empty beer crates and I will introduce you to the ultimate butt slam, and if you beg nicely, I will finish you with a champagne enema.
@...nyokki: only a minute???? I thought you didn’t buy into that “men gots no staying power” bs. I ‘m sure we can go for at least FIVE minutes……
@...Dr.Devine: HALF HOUR? oh to be young again…..Ok, gonna need to start upping distance running and cardio training…….
Sorry guys…didn’t mean to offend your sensibilities. Of course it should be a 1/2 hour. I’ll go so far as to say we can make it a full hour. Let’s find out how good we are together, shall we?
@SumoSnipe:….. Hot?
@nyokki: I will take your hour and raise you another hour.
@...nyokki:
@...Dr.Devine:
I see your two hours and raise you a browser hang/timeout.
wut you ppl talking about
@...Dr.Devine: @...Phyreblade: I’ll see your 2 hours and browser timeout and raise you a comcast internet interruption of 20 minutes.
@...Dr.Devine: For an exceptional specimen such as yourself, I will make every attempt to surpass all expectations, and together may we cause brainstems to leap out of their skeletal confines and cavort across the ceiling.
27 seconds to refresh…..
@...ColombianMonkey: I thought they may be talking about sex, but it is all geek to me….
I think we were talking about sex, but then it shifted to discussion over refresh time.
And sounds great. Can’t wait to see the brainstem cavortion. Really? damn spell check, without it, I would have never know that cavortion is not a word…
4 hours ?
href=”#comment-176232″>nyokki: LOL I’ll see your Comcast interruption and raise you a SONET backbone congestion…
@...SumoSnipe: 27 seconds? Fast connection FTW…! My refresh is about 14 secs… 🙂 I will b teh winnarz!!!
@...Phyreblade: Hah! 7.49 sec refresh.
@...nyokki: Ooooh… Ur EEEEEVIL…. >:{
I think we should just aim for it to be slow enough that its an inconvenience to anyone new that attempts to access the moldy bible… so thirty seconds should about do it.
As for those of you with freakishly fast internet….
Wow.
darn what happened to the sophisticated talk ?
Uhh…. Utilitarianism, good of the innocent, great justice, education, psychological determinative twist, bla bla blah. That sophisticated enough for ya?
See, I could never walk into a room where incredible chains of dialogue had happened, and go “what did i miss?” and expect the people in there to retell everything that was told, I couldn’t rewind time and listen to the convo all over again. But in a format such as this, I can easily just read it all on my own time and catch up to the end. Plus I can get up and wander around and do many other things at the same time.
to touch back on some previous stuff regarding automation… I’m of two minds about it. It’s a difficult transition for humanity to face, with people being replaced by robots. But frankly it’s a step in the right direction I think. I would like to see a future where robots do every menial job and all the crude labor so people can be freed to pursue technical and intellectual pursuits. But the other hand is that, a great deal of people right now enjoy that menial labor. They like having a simple hard working job because they weren’t made for intellectual pursuits. This doesn’t make those people lesser in any way, but it’s a fact that they are a dying breed. We owe our lives to the sweat and blood of our working class and the day they are all replaced by robots, we will have lost a major part of ourselves as a whole. But it’s a sacrifice I think is worth it, for the species, the planet and the future. It’ll be a gradual thing anyway. What is really standing in our way is the military industrial complex and the inherent corruption of the idea of competition over cooperation, and the monetary economy. I want to see a future where all technology is open-source. Where we can make decisions based on our planets resource base as a whole (which would be monitored and managed by global infranet sort of system, where useless bureaucracy and middlemen are eliminated as the parasites they are. There are so many elements in our society that feeds off the energy of others without providing anything essential to us, that NEED to be eliminated. The fear of boredom and the nonsense of a utopia is exactly that, nonsense. There will always be new problems and always be new obstacles to overcome. If I lived in a world where all my basic needs were provided for, and I could do whatever I wanted, I would never be bored. The opposite in fact, I would be busier than ever. Between just learning new shit for the sake of learning, to playing games and sports and developing my body and physical abilities for the pure sake of health and posterity, to making art and designing new stuff to make the world better, and never needing to worry about money, never needing to think of what do I get out of this, and instead think what do WE get out of this.
It’s an undeniable fact that if we responsibly manage all the worlds resources, and in the future, all the solar systems resources, there is no need for anyone to ever go hungry or without, EVER. Space for people? Why not outerspace? the moon and mars are waiting for us. There should be an orbital-ring space-station / metropolis in the works right now. But even all that as on the horizon is forgetting about 70% of our planet: The Ocean. There is SO much untapped space, food, and ENERGY waiting for us to embrace in the ocean that it is absurd that we haven’t built more tidal generators and undersea farms and cities.
But first we got to stop shooting our brothers and bombing our sisters over the pettiest of reasons. We got to stop spending so much energy (money) on weapons.
The real next step in evolution, when we eliminate money we will have an economy centered around Nutrients, Minerals, and Energy. The raw materials and the actual power is the only thing that is real. The rest is a fucking fake idea that is just getting in the way of progress.
There will always be challenges, there will always be upgrades new things to accomplish. If we stopped killing each other, learned to fucking share and work together, we could all be well fed and be exploring outer and inner space together right fucking now.
I know I am a dreamer, and I know my dreams for the future of humanity might seem out of this world, but I see it happening. I don’t think it’s unrealistic at all. It won’t happen over night, and it will take a lot of hard work and commitment, but I see it happening. People every where more and more are shifting, as technology advances, more technological specialists are needed. No matter how many robots we make and how much crude work gets automated, there will always be a need to for human minds to oversee, guide and tune.
Many things, like the military, don’t need to be eliminated at all, just the focus shifted. I dream of a world where all the big strong sexy men and women in uniform still represent the peak of human ability, but their job is to save lives instead of take them. They are there to rescue us from disaster and protect us from the unforeseen dangers of the unknown.
I watched that video of Mike Rowe talking about lamb castration and how the people doing the dirty jobs are happy and enjoy their work. But I think a human who can be happy shoveling shit, can be just as happy controlling a robot to shovel shit.
Think tanks are an important part of the future I dream of. Think about how many people there are who would love to do nothing but surf the web or play games all day. Why not harness that? The pursuit of knowledge is a noble thing and minds engaged in discussion and debate and the sharing of ideas is something people should be freely able to devote themselves to. The running of computer simulations for new vehicles new planes and new entertainment is a worthwhile thing. The development of robots to explore and work in environments hazardous to people will require people with the skills of a gamer.
Shit, i could sit here and speculate about this shit all day. My mind is made for speculation. But it isn’t made for labor or technical work. I am good at coming up with ideas, but I lack the skills to make them happen. Yet there is no way I can devote myself to thinking without starving to death because my government doesn’t provide my basic needs for me. Mind you, I found that teaching yoga is the perfect job for me, and it still leaves me plenty of time to engage in other activities, but I know many people who aren’t so fortunate. I know many great minds who are going to waste because they are stuck in shitty jobs that don’t inspire them, struggling to pay bills and feed themselves, unable to devote much time to thought or the betterment of themselves and their world, because they are stuck in the grinding drone of a debt based economy. School taught them how to be good consumers and how to conform to this society, but this society is inefficient and unhealthy and we need to learn how to step out of it, so that we can look at it and pause and think about how to fix it. You can’t fix your car while you are still driving it. and if you don’t stop and get out to examine it and fix the problem before it is too late, the consequences can be fatal. The recent/current economic “crisis” is a rattling under the hood, that should be telling us there is something really wrong with this beat up old machine we are driving. Heck, I think it’s not worth paying the mechanic to fix. It’s time for a new car.
@...sylvanish:one of our main problem is that we are humans in the trials of tribulations, we will still fuck up if we never wanted to. (did i say that right?)
@...ColombianMonkey: Oh yes, we will always fuck up. Thing is, that *isn’t* a problem. Fucking up is natural. Fucking up is how we learn. We will always fuck up. Big and small. Even when we’ve turned Mercury into a power plant, Venus into a paradise and Mars into a factory… when the moons of Saturn and Jupiter are covered in research stations and mining plants and we create a stable wormhole to take us beyond the Oort Cloud… we will still be fucking up left right and center. But a sign of maturity in a single human is their ability to learn from their mistakes. So too with the human species.
@...sylvanish: and the million lives consumed in this process yipee.. this process is the only one we have so i think process is inappropriate for here
Also, Neptune will have a space-station city / ringworld that is pretty much just a HEUG dance club. It’ll happen cause i god damn say so.