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Wasn’t Moses the leader in this story?
Wasn’t Moses Jewish?
Do Jews not believe this story?
Technically, something like this may have in fact happened, but it didn’t require deity intervention. I believe it was James Cameron who recently put together a film that tried to demonstrate that the bible is true because the story of the Exodus really happened. The problem is his “proof” actually just showed that if it happened, it was just a natural phenomenon. Something about a volcanic eruption.
So yes, a political power from Egypt, the Hyksos, experienced a tremendous downturn in their economy leading to a revolt, and were kicked out of Egypt, and migrated east using a land-bridge over the Red Sea. And they grew up to be, The Jews. And the story was passed down from generation to generation, and embellished with each imparting, until we have the bible today.
And now some people get dressed up every Sunday to hear the stories of ancient nomadic barbarians, which they base their whole lives around. For me, that’s PVR catch-up time.
You make me sad.
@AlecDalek
James Cameron proved that Jews are liars?
I think he also found Jesus’s coffin didn’t he?
James Cameron kicks much ass.
Again, it’s totally possible that a guy names “Jesus” existed (along with several other “false messiahs” at the time). Sometimes I think the Bible shoots itself in the foot by making a point that there were several men at the time of Jesus that had followers just like him, and they all claimed to be the one true messiah (so like “Life of Brian”). Maybe the “Jesus” myth is like the Robin Hood myth, and it’s just an amalgam of various people and stories from the time. Jesus was actually several different people. The books about him weren’t written until a 100 years after they were all dead. That’s why the 4 “gospels” of the New Testament contradict each other.
And don’t get me started on the fact that the biblical story of the flood borrows from several different accounts (thus the inconsistencies like 2 of each creature vs 7 of each “clean”, etc). In fact most of “Jesus” teachings are a ripoff of Buddhism which existed 500 years before. The Law of Moses is a ripoff of the Hammurabi code. It just goes on.
ARE YOU SERIOUSLY TRYING TO TELL ME THAT GEORGE W. BUSH WAS USING SPY SATELLITES BACK IN THOSE DAYS TOO!!! DAMN BUSH!!!!!
He was searching for weapons of mass exodus.
anyone else think there where just a bunch of stoners back in the day that tripped out a think they saw it…or maybe it did happen cuz ya know thats alwayse a possibility..o wait no its not nvm
Anything is possible. Always has been, always will be.
“Anything is possible. Always has been, always will be.”
no. start by trying to express the square root of 2 as the ratio of two integers.
@AlecDalek;
WEAPONS OF MASS EXODUS!
[writes that one down for use in casual conversation later, where he will claim he developed it on his own]
@AlecDalek
Not to mention the fact that the whole ‘Jesus’ story has an awful lot in common with previous religions…
I read something about finding chariots and various implements of war in the Red Sea thirty years ago. Though, apperently this was discovered by a moron…I don’t remember all the details. Anyone have any real data on it?
@Dalek
I thought that Brian of life of Brian said he was NOT the messiah. Though, I get the joke. But it seems that thats most of what you did with those posts. I don’t think that the bible mentions “the Jesus” along with “the OTHER false messiahs” (i.e. Jesus the Nazerene and the other false messiahs were hanging out in Caanan…). That really would shoot itself in the foot. If anything mentioned that there were false ones but the bible one was the real one would add to the validity of “the Jesus”.
I have never read anything (reasonable) saying that the gosples were first written about 200 C.E. (200 years after everyone was dead). Nor does it make sense that those christians who were ALWAYS writing SOMETHING neglected to write about the Jesus untill the third century. Where did you get this information?
How is it that the bible account of the flood was the one borrowed from? What if everyone alse borrowed from the oral history that was eventually recorded in the bible? One can just as easily say one as the other. What descrepancy do you mean with the “twos” and “sevens”? Two of the unclean animals and seven of the clean animals. Which were loaded by twos (seven goats at a time might be difficult to get through a door.). If you are looking to make fun of some stupid people, why not point out that 9 out of 10 christians do not know what a “ark” is? Or that they think that there were only two of each of everything and not seven of some, like the bible says?
And I think you are right on the Buddha and Hammurabi thing. Obviously, the kindness and non-agressive plilosphy started with Buddha. And laws were invented by Hammurabi. How could anyone now see that? (sarchasm there)
Let us all make fun of stupid people and things with facts, not conjecture.
@Alek:
‘weapons of mass exodus” caused me to spew Coca-Cola on my monitor. Thank Jeebus I’m at work and not at home . . .
“He was searching for weapons of mass exodus.
Comment by AlecDalek “-This is officially the funniest thing Ive read since beginning my day today. however on a more biblical note, I find it interesting that so many people around the world kill each other over religion, and forgive me if I sound all “free to be you and me,” but the fact is we are all the same. The only thing guaranteed is we live and die. Thats it. We all do this. So what makes any belief better than the other besides how big your Cadillac is lol
“no. start by trying to express the square root of 2 as the ratio of two integers.”
Wow, you really got me there. Thanks, man, my life is changed forever.
Looks like reboot WINS.
reboot WINS!
reboot WINS!
reboot WINS!
We need to get reboot in to a church.
@EvilDon
Are you claiming reboot wins as a lame attempt to steer us away from the bible bashing?
Anyway, you do realize that even the bible says that Jesus disciples were illiterates, yet they supposedly wrote the books that were named after them. There were actually many more than the final 4 we have today, although some of the others have survived (like the recently recovered Gospel of Judas). Around 180 AD, a committee in Rome decided on Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, because they most suited their current beliefs, where as the other books supported the Gnostic’s, which were already a split in christianity.
Here’s some more reading for you about how the New Testament was actually produced:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon
Oh an you disputed that the bible mentions the existence of other “Christs” (which means messiah). Here you go: Matthew 24:11, Matthew 24:24, Mark 13:22.
I’m dangerous in that I know the Bible quite well, but I don’t believe it.
@Dalek
No, Dalek Buddy. Look at this:
Super Ammo
Anything is possible. Always has been, always will be.
reboot
start by trying to express the square root of 2 as the ratio of two integers.
SuperAmmo
Wow, you really got me there. Thanks, man, my life is changed forever.
That was how he won.
The bible says of some of the writers that they were ‘unlettered’ or ‘ordinary’. Likely referring to a lack of education from rabbinic schools. A great many ancient Jews were literate.
Righty, “christianity” was splitting from apostolic times. But as long as we are exchanging fun bits of knowledge… According to the bible Luke and Mark did not even know Jesus. Luke researched what he wrote. And Mark (possibly) got his information from Peter. Anyways, if there were some folks in Rome that decided what they liked out of the bible in 180, then the gospels were written before that.
Actually, I am rather familiar with how we got the whole bible, not just the new testament. It is fun (sometimes quite amusing) reading. But thanks for the link.
No, Dalek I did not disagree with the bible saying that there were other Christs or Messiahs (both meaning anointed one). I said that the bible did not mention: “OTHER false messiahs” along with the Jesus. That would imply that the messiah they wrote about was grouped with the fakes.
You are dangerous with your knowledge of the bible?…teeheehee
Be sarcastic if you want to, but there are a number of things that a just plain impossible. Starting with logical and mathematical contradiction (which, by themselves, rule out an omnipotent, benevolent deity) and moving on to various violations of physics that rule out most of the ‘miracles’ in Bible.
@Alek
Out of curiosity, what James Cameron documentary are talks about Moses and the Red Sea? I tried to look it up on imdb, but I only saw the Jesus’ Tomb one.
@The Matrix: Rebooted:
Logical and mathmatical contradictions? Violations of physics? Bring it on!
“In the Arena of Logic, I fight Unarmed”
@The Matrix: Rebooted
I was NOT being sarcastic. I hate broad statements, like: ‘anything is possible’. If it is true, that can mean that there IS a God and he is just punishing us, in his mercy, for living on the same planet as SuperAmmo .
But still, lets look at things. Is someone coming back to life stranger than thinking life coming from goo? Is the universe arising from a singularity stranger than water becoming wine? Seroiusly, we live in a strange universe. Though, one that does have limits.
I await for my previous comment to be misconstrued…
@EvilDon
I know what reboot said, but it had fuck all to do with the topic of the thread, so your drawing attention to it is just a function of your doubts that are forming.
If Jesus was one of a multitude of false messiahs, and was the one that gained the most popular support, the books written by the victors would warn against “false” messiahs. It’s not going to give away any more information than that.
I know you’re just going to go on believing what you already believe, because otherwise you’d have to leave your comfort zone. But let me pull a trick out of the bag of retard creation-only-ists, and ask whether or not you have personally observed the disciples writing each other their respective books. I mean seeing as there is no historical evidence that they did, the burden of proof is on those that have decided this on blind faith alone. Prove who wrote them!
BTW, the only thing harder to believe than the universe coming into existence as the result of the big bang, and that over billions of years of random chance, we get the Xbox, is the crazy notion that in the beginning there was absolutely nothing, and then BOOM, out of nowhere, a super-evolved super-powerful omnipotent being came into existence and THEN created the universe.
@The Matrix: Rebooted
As requested, it was called “The Exodus Decoded”
us.imdb.com/title/tt0847162/
God is nothing without sin. Support God, get some strange.
Blech Buddha and Jesus are nothing like each other. And it is pretty possible that Jesus is an amalgamation of different preachers, but it’s more likely he was just a regular pharisee.
The theory goes something like this: Most of what Jesus said was just a variation on what most (or at least some) Pharisees were just kind of a saying at the time.
But the problem with that is that Jesus was talking shit about pharisees all the time so wtf? He didn’t even disagree with a lot of them about anything. Also he was against sectarian conflict (see ‘the Good Samaritan’) so like what the fuck why was a smart dude like Jesus sometimes very inconsistent?
Well the theory is that Jesus was probably just a very charismatic pharisee Rabbi. Then after he died his followers had a falling out with other pharisees and his gentile followers outside of Jerusalem (who wrote the gospels) had a further falling out so like they just added parts like where Jesus said ‘fuck Pharisees’.
Fundies might not like that explanation, but frankly that sort of thing is as common as dirt in history and there’s some pretty good evidence so I’m inclined to believe it or at least not dismiss it offhand.
Comparative mythology however has drawn some very strange conclusions, I could talk about that in an non-christian context. There is indeed a dulge story in a lot of religions (though by people who lived near rivers that flooded so lol whatever) though so hey I don’t know what to make of that.
Also reboot isn’t the second law of thermodynamics *informal* so in theory the tea could just spontaneously jump out of my cup of tea and leave me with a cup of water it’s just very improbable? Nothing to do with Moses I just always wanted to ask a scientist that.
@The Matrix: Rebooted: nonononono he might have got a lot of popular support but it was mostly in anatolia and greece. Have you ever read the Talmuds? (I haven’t read it all only some holy shit long) Or Josephus? There were a lot of more popular dudes with the Jews but for some reason Greeks dug on that Jesus thing though not much it was a really long time before he got popular.
Also the gospels weren’t written 100 years after Jesus died more like between 30-80 years after he died.
i mean @alec all you people look the same to me.
@AlecDalek
“He was searching for weapons of mass exodus.”
i guffawed.
I think # 10’s stoner theory wins.
@Alec
Thanks. I didn’t see that since Cameron is the narrator and I was looking for movies he directed.
@Caio, the second law of thermo is formal (its basically a mathematical proof), but its a statistical law. Recently, there have been theoretical and experimental developments that have shown that, microscopically, entropy does not always decrease in a closed system.
If the probabilities were exaggerated, your tea could jump out of the cup, but it would lower its temperature to do so, since conservation of energy still is a ‘hard’ law. To emphasize, this is one of those ‘will never happen in a quadrillion times the lifetime of the universe’ events. But if it did happen, it would by unlikely event, not an impossible one.
@EvilDon
“Is someone coming back to life stranger than thinking life coming from goo? Is the universe arising from a singularity stranger than water becoming wine?”
What’s unbelievable about those Biblical events isn’t that they supposedly happened, but that they supposedly happened on command.
If someone tells me that he that his tea jumped out his cup, I would say that’s weird, but possible. If someone tells me that he told his tea to jump out of the cup and it did so, I would say he’s full of shit. If he says that if I believe in him really, really hard and maybe pay him some cash, that I’ll be able to make tea jump out of a cup, then I’m going to report him for fraud.
EvilDon on March 18th, 2008 2:22 pm
I await for my previous comment to be misconstrued…
Request fulfilled. Thanks Dalek.
I am tired of this…
1: “your doubts that are forming”
Doubts of what? I dont know and you dont care.
2:”If Jesus was one of a multitude of false messiahs, and was the one that gained the most popular support, the books written by the victors would warn against “false†messiahs. It’s not going to give away any more information than that.”
QUITE RIGHT. But the wrightings are still older than the third century and the bible did not say YO, Da Jesus is leik false and stuffs. THAT’S ALL I MEANT. AS IN: THAT IS ALL I MEANT.
3:I know you’re just going to go on believing what you already believe, because otherwise you’d have to leave your comfort zone. But let me pull a trick out of the bag of retard creation-only-ists, and ask whether or not you have personally observed the disciples writing each other their respective books. I mean seeing as there is no historical evidence that they did, the burden of proof is on those that have decided this on blind faith alone. Prove who wrote them!
Why do you care about what I believe? I was citing a book, and history around it. But since you brought it up… I WROTE IT (That is a joke. I make them from time to time). Just don’t misquote the bible or ANYTHING when you are trying to make a point.(THAT’S ALL I MEANT).
BTW, the only thing harder to believe than the universe coming into existence as the result of the big bang, and that over billions of years of random chance, we get the Xbox, is the crazy notion that in the beginning there was absolutely nothing, and then BOOM, out of nowhere, a super-evolved super-powerful omnipotent being came into existence and THEN created the universe.
YES, YOU ARE RIGHT! THAT IS STOOOOOPID. And it is not what I believe.
So, why do I write all of this…? Because all you WERE doing was throwing out conjecture. Like Jesus=Buddha and Moses=Hammurabi. And people say Neo=Jesus and Superman=Jesus and it is as stupid as it is annoying. And that gets on my nerves, I was in a typing mood, so here we are.
4:Why is it that every time one of us comments on the others comment, we get in to a flame war?
@The Matrix: Rebooted
EvilDon on March 18th, 2008 2:22 pm
I await for my previous comment to be misconstrued…
Request filled again. Thanks reboot.
So, that is a “yes” on that stuff is possible. And if someone tells that god is talking to him, he is a nutter, if he askes for muniez too, a thief as well. If I understood your tea analogy. AGREED
@everyone
Not that I am running out of things to say. But I am tired of rebutting things I did not say. OK?
@Thank you reboot. I heard something like that or something but actually having it explained in layman’s terms is nice.
I know it would probably never happen but if my tea jumped out of my cup I would be like, “…………..HOLY SHIT!…..MY TEA!!!!”
No really I was wrong, some things are impossible, like people not arguing about the most retarded things imaginable.
@EvilDon
TL;DR. Although your volume of words speak more than the words themselves. Getting defensive is the first sign of doubt.
@... Dalek
Most of the last post are your words.
I had a course that at one point focused on explaining the 10 plagues and the exodus from Egypt, and as far as the part of the waters goes, it seems plausible that the waters subsided (as the tides do, but more in draught fashion) long enough for the Jews to get through; it wasn’t necessarily dry land beneath their feet, but the water was shallow enough. Then, coincidentally (and if you can manage to believe it) the tides came in or a major storm hit as the Egyptians got there several days later (rather than the few hours or whatever it’s supposed to be in the Bible…consider that part poetic license).
The course wasn’t some philosophy class, either. I went to Catholic school for 12 years and this was taught in Catholic school as not being a miracle, but something completely explainable.
@this debate
tl;dr.
Re: The programme explaining Exodus. I saw it, it wasn’t James Cameron, but it was the guy who helped him make the Jesus grave documentary (and a few others I believe): Simcha Jacobovici (‘The Naken Archeologist’).
The program was called “The Exodus Decoded” and was produced for the history channel.
Trailer on YouTube here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBBvvDl25F4&feature=related
… i fucking hate internet religon debates. you get frustrated and annoyed quickly and no one listens to you.
we should argue about philosophical questions that dont involve specifically religon. To the forums
@Snow
I like internet religious debates. Although other philosophical questions + internet flaming = win.
OMG WTF People r intrinsically good, not evil!
@RichardAtHome
James Cameron didn’t make it (some Canadian did), but it’s JC’s name in big letters on the cover:
us.imdb.com/media/rm2137428480/tt0847162
tl;dr
It could be worse …
photobucket.com/albums/v14/gssq83/Blog/gogov_time/moses.jpg
Check dis ya’ll……..really you’ll have to check it! Perhaps through NASA…….I have seen it before, as footage, no jinks….that where the Israelites walked through the Red Sea, there is footage with infared satilites that gives testimonial of this occurance happening…..Their is your faith, as God Almighty has used our technology to show that He does exist. Thank-you…..and thank-Him…..
Hey look, a gangsta Christian troll, ooo neat!
Damn NASA and their time travel telescopes making us non believers look stupid!