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    The Matrix: Rebooted

    Its not the CEOs writing themselves multimillion dollars paychecks, its not the complete lack on innovation and development, its not the transition to a post-industrial economy.
    Its those stinking unions that are causing all the problems.

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    theblackmask

    Probably a little of all of them.

    But at least in part to unions. And the lack thereof in developing countries who are now pretty developed. Like India and China specifically. Granted if they ever get proper labor laws those countries will just be looking at the same problem Americans have when the same companies look for other countries to out source to. That’s actually happening in India now. People realized their worth and now when you out source to India chances are they out source that same job somewhere else.

    Eventually they’ll get cut out of the loop. Just like a lot of Americans who relied on their jobs to pay for their lives built on credit.

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    gor

    No, but those Union leaders were complaisant. Those leaders were the ones who also wrote themselves big dollar paychecks (from union funds), did everything they could to keep their members who were found to be stealing or lying in their responsiblities to keep their jobs, and squeezed more money other than dues from their members to give to crappy political candidates without the members voting for it.

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    Caio

    Bah. Japan -economic success story of the universe and half the reason America couldn’t compete in various enterprises, thus closed down those factories etc back in the 80s – has always got along well with the unions.

    Human greed is limitless. Just look at Conrad Black. One of the richest (former) Canadians alive, and he still thought it would be worth risking imprisonment and ripping off, even ruining the lives of, countless investors just so he could buy a few mansions more? Fucking insanity. It’s one thing to be rich, but how many mansions do you really need?

    Unions are shit. They rip people off, pay unskilled labour disproportionately, make it so people can do fuck all and not get fired. But the government is generally slow in protecting workers, and there’s no one else to but unions. I hate Unions, but I’m glad they exist, because the less rich greedy shitheads kind of help to balance out the more rich greedy shitheads.

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    The Matrix: Rebooted

    Japan is good example of unions working. Sweden is another good example where, despite unions, their steel industry has been growing by investing in new technologies.
    Southwest Airlines,the only airline to consistently make a profit, is heavily unionized . So how come the other airlines have problems?

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    Supernaut

    According to that website, only 12.5 of workers in the US are union members, then how the hell could they be responsible for economic decline?

    Of course there are corrupt unions, but the corruption lies in their cooperation with companies! Without proper unions and organized workers we would be stuck in the dark ages.

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    dorix

    The photo in the poster has nothing to do with unions or bankrupt companies, though. It’s just a pool. It’s closed. Due to aids.

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    Alec Dalek


    Um, because there used to be a hell of a lot more union workers, but the corrupt unions sold them out and now those jobs are overseas. But those folks that lost their jobs are still over hear, trying to scrape by. Good thing they were willing to give up 10% of their income every week to the union in exchange for that keg of beer at the party that one time.

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    Mack

    Dalek, I’d like to point out that it was the coorporations who moved the work overseas to cut labour costs, and any union who didn’t resist that wasn’t worth shit. Unions are democratic enterprises, and if the workers don’t want to lose their jobs to china and the union bosses are trying to sell them out, they can re-elect. In realpolitik terms, there isn’t really much the workers can do to fight globalisation short of protesting, unlike striking for higher wages.

    And, if paying blue collar workers a living wage is “Paying unskilled labour disproportionately”, so be it.

    Unions act as a necessary counterbalance to employers hiring, firing, and paying as little as possible to drive down salary costs.

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    The Matrix: Rebooted

    @AlecDalek
    I am a union member, AUW 4121 (we started off as in the Academic Workers Union then merge with AUW because of Boeing, yeah its weird). Just to be perfectly clear, they do not take 10% of my paycheck. The Union dues are about $2.50 each month.

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    Caio

    Even the best union is going to have a hard time shutting down a factory. I can think of an instance in Canada when one of the country’s biggest companies, Maple Leaf, closed a plant simply to put the Union in its place. They claimed they were struggling financially, but in the meantime, they’ve opened several other plants and bought out another company. Doesn’t sound like struggling to me.

    I can think of another example, in Portugal, when GM closed down their plant there and moved it to Spain, where the union laws are less strict, labour laws are allow for greater exploitation and average pay is lower. How can you fight that? It’s completely out of the hands of the Union: It’s the fault of the Spanish government for selling out its own people.

    Politicians in North America, likewise, have been encouraging companies to find cheap labour abroad for decades now. Both left-wing and right-wing parties, until recently, have had no problem debasing their own economies in the long run for some nice short-term gain. If you blame the unions for that, you can also blame the minimum wage and the emancipation proclamation, as the UN regards much of the labour used to make your products as slavery.

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    Lord_Gorlock

    While yes, there is corruption at every level that contributes to the economic problems that this country faces, unions seem to be a breeding ground for inefficiency and waste. I worked as an engineering intern at a plan with a closed shop (all union workers). They were having a contact dispute, so all the union workers were locked out of their jobs at the time I started. Talking to the engineers without the workers being there opened my eyes to the kind of waste that takes place. Whenever you have workers being told to work slower, or not do their best, because they make others look bad, it’s a bad situation. When you have people who “work” 8 hour days, but spend most of it sitting on their ass, and still get paid in the $80k range (due to seniority, not skill), it’s a bad thing. I’m not saying that all union employees are like this, and yes, it is important for workers to have an outlet with which to negotiate with their employer on equal terms, but the fact that this same system protects and rewards those that produce the least at the expense of those that can produce the most just make me sick. Unions may not be the main cause of the problems in our auto and airline sectors, but I’m sure they don’t help.

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    squiddle

    , mack & reboot

    Intelligent debate on my confined space?

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    Alec Dalek

    When I worked at a hospital, the union staff had 10% of their wages go to the union. Of course they said it was for this and that, but it was a paper tiger union as they did not have the right to strike, so the money seemed to just evapourate. Fortunately for me, I worked in IT so I didn’t have to join, but I did work on the payroll system, and knew what everyone’s salary was.

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    Alec Dalek

    You know, when unions first came about, they actually “fought” the power that was exploiting them. Lots of violent clashes. That’s when they worked. But when american companies started closing plants to move them overseas, THAT is when the autoworkers should have joined together to block the cars made at those overseas plants from entering US soil. Sure they’d have to break some laws, but that’s the origin of the union. It’s about the individually weak joining together to become stronger than the strong. That is how change happens.

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    Max

    :
    THIS IS MADNESS

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    The Matrix: Rebooted

    Talking about whether union are good or bad is like talking about whether governments are good or bad.
    Yes, some governments overtax their people and do nothing to help them. Other governments have made such progressive advances that even people who do not live directly under them have benefited. Does that mean that all governments should be overthrown?

    0
    Alec Dalek

    Good point, reboot. I think the difference is that people are more likely to equate blind faith in the government as stupidity, than the “work union, live better” sentiment. (at least I hope that’s the case). The effective quality varies greatly from union to union, just like buying a hamburger from McDonalds.

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    The Matrix: Rebooted

    dammit, we’ve reach a reasonable and intelligent compromise on a controversial issue.
    A pig just flew by my window on his way to a ski trip in hell.

    0
    oh2ohz

    Yeah, i’d prefer some namecalling.. its kind of uncomfortable without it.

    0
    blackdog33

    A lie told by an Arkansas grade school dropout, disseminated by CEOs taking 100s of millions in “bonuses” and propagated by thumb sucking parrots.

    0
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